The problem here is that the NF does not define a "scrimmage kick play". The NCAA defines it as the interval between the snap and the end of the kick. If the NF would adopt that definition, we would not have a problem of when the foul occur. The other problem is the Comments on the rule change on page 73 of the rule book which states that R must have "clean hands" until the ball crosses the ENZ.

REPLY: What I believe the intention is even if it doesn't come across well in the rules is this: If a foul that otherwise qualifies as a PSK enforceable foul occurs during a kick try anytime or during an unsuccessful FG in an extra period, PSK is not an option, but that does <u><b>not</b></u> mean that the foul is declined by rule and unenforceable. I believe that enforcement reverts back to the previous spot. I know that's the way it's designed in the NCAA rules, and I believe it's the most equitable enforcement. I hope the Fed clears this up. Can someone look in the case book to see if such a play is covered.

Heck Bob, it does not even come over so clear in the NCAA rules. I am with you that it should revert to a prev spot enforcement but there are some who still insist it should be "declined by rule", based on past statements by clinicians.

Mike, I can't see how anyone can endorse just "ignoring" the foul by B during a try or FG in extra periods. To my way of thinking, post scrimmage kick enforcement is listed as an "exception" to the enforcement rule for fouls during kick plays. If a foul fails to meet <u>any</u> of the criteria for PSK enforcement, then the exception is not applicable and you revert to the governing rule (NCAA 10-2-2e) which says the basic spot is the previous spot. What would they do if B fouled at the LOS? Ignore the foul?? No--they would enforce from the previous spot. And why? Because PSK isn't applicable for such fouls and you apply 10-2-2e. Same story for a foul during try. It's just failure to meet another criteria under which you're allowed to apply the PSK exception.

According to the NFHS, "this change does not create an exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot."

Therfore, I think if a foul is to be enforce from the PSK spot in an overtime period, the foul would not be penalized.

If you think about it, to be PSK the foul must occur beyond the ENZ. In a game winning FG situation how much activity happens that far down field?

It depends if you have a Leon Lett on your team or not.

He'd have to be REAL fast. In Fed we start on the 10 not the 25 like you guys!

REPLY: STEVED21, my comments were being made specifically in the context of NCAA rules and a response to the post by TxMike. In NCAA rules, PSK <u><b>is</b></u> listed as an "exception" to the standard enforcement procedures for fouls during kick plays which typically dictate previous spot enforcement--just like the Federation. I haven't yet received my NFHS books so I was unaware of their comment about PSK <u>not</u> being an exception. Interesting that unless the Federation changed 10-3-1a and 10-4-2b, PSK becomes a <i>de facto</i> exception regardless of what they choose to call it.

As far as your other comment about fouls by R during a kick try or during an unsuccessful FG attempt in OT being "ignored" or "declined by rule" please consider this: In order to apply PSK enforcement to a Team R foul, the foul must occur prior to the end of the kick and the following criteria must be met. Humor me since I don't have my Federation books yet.
1. Foul occurs beyond the expanded neutral zone
2. Kick must cross the NZ
3. Team K does not have possession at the end of the down
4. Must not be during a try or FG in OT

If a team R foul before the kick ends fails to meet either of the first three criteria, we penalize from the previous spot, correct? Why, when it fails to meet criteria #4, would we just choose to ignore it? What makes that criteria so special?

Also, STEVED21, Federation gives the states leeway in determining how to resolve ties--including the right to use a different OT procedure than the one listed in the Fed Rule Book. For example, here in NJ, we use the NCAA procedure (1/10 from B's 25) where B possession does <u>not</u> kill the play. B can score and win the game on a turnover. And I know that NJ is not the only ones using the NCAA procedure. So here the prospect of a long FG and a foul downfield by R is not so remote as it might be under the standard Federation OT.

Bob,

A. I do have the rule books and the quote was directly from NFHS comment on revisions in the 2003 case book. The rules do create a NEW basic spot for PSK in
10-4-3. The "exception" is now that a PSK foul is an exception to a loose ball play. It's semantics but it helps make the point that the foul wouldn't be enforced.

B. See one of my previous posts where I list the 5 criteria for PSK from 10-4-3. These are the "special" criteria.

C. The 10 yd thing was a joke. We use 20yds in NY.

D. Are you really going to give K another oppotunity for FG or a 1st down if they miss a long kick and R commits a foul after the kick was grounded?

REPLY: Consider this play in OT at least for those of us who use the NCAA procedure. Team A attempts a long FG. It's coming down short at R's 5, and R12 sees a chance to grab it and head for a winning score. However, he muffs it (still a kick) and it rolls toward R's goal line. K21, covering the kick, sees an opportunity to recover and extend his series first and goal inside R's 5. R12 tackles him to prevent his recovery and the ball rolls into R's end zone. Do we just say, "Tough luck K. It's now R's ball"

I understand your point about semantics and the fact that the Fed does refer to PSK as an "exception" to standard loose ball foul enforcement. But the exception is only in force if the PSK criteria are met. What if they're not? Do we just ignore any fouls by R that don't qualify for PSK, e.g. a face mask by R at the LOS?

I see it as either PSK enforcement (if all criteria are met) or previous spot enforcement (if any of the PSK criteria are not met). In this case, one criteria is not met, i.e. it's during a FG in OT. Therefore, enforce from the previous spot.

I guess you are quoting NCAA rules because FED does not have this criteria.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by STEVED21

Quote:

I guess you are quoting NCAA rules because FED does not have this criteria.

REPLY: Actually, you're right--I was quoting the NCAA rules. The NCAA just put the OT FG exclusion in this season. They missed it originally. Eventually--it will just take time--the Federation will realize that PSK doesn't make sense in traditional OT.