NF but curious if NCAA is different:

A 3/23 at A-2 yard line. A7 drops back to pass. He is under a heavy rush and turns around to run further back in his endzone when he is contacted from behind by B95. Knowing he is going down, A7 simply throws the pass over his head toward the direction of the line. It is obvious he is getting rid of the ball to avoid the sack and the safety. It lands at the heals of eligible A32, but A32 had no inclination the pass was ever near him because he was blocking during the entire down. How do you rule?

No foul in NCAA. As long as there is an eligible receiver in the area then no foul is committed.

NF 7-5-2d...

"IFP... a pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time."

I believe the case book has a similar play and states that the referee has to use his judgement on whether the QB intentionally threw the ball incomplete.

On this play, I'd throw the flag.

It's a no-brainer if there is no eligible in the vicinity.

REPLY: Mike, In Federation, I don't really think there's any other ruling than a legal incomplete pass. Remember that the requirement is that the pass must not be <i>"...intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver."</i> Since the receiver was there (whether or not he was expecting the pass) I believe it's legal.

The NCAA rule is worded a little differently. It infers that to be legal, an eligible must have a <i>"...reasonable opportunity to catch the pass."</i> It also goes on to say that when in question, you are to rule that he <u>did</u> have reasonable opportunity. I've always interpreted <i>"reasonable opportunity to catch the pass"</i> as a function of distance from it as opposed to his awareness of the pass. In which case, I'd rule the play legal in an NCAA game as well. The ARs use the phrase <i>"reasonable opportunity"</i> exclusively in their case plays without any explanation of what exactly they mean by it, so If there is an interpretation to the contrary, maybe Mr. Heisey can set us straight. Also, be aware that if the QB is 5 or more yards closer to the sideline than the position of the ball at the snap, he can "dump" it by just making sure that the pass crosses the NZ.

I'm assuming that in your play, A32's block was <u>behind</u> the NZ so that the question of OPI is not significant.

I agree completely with Bob. If we start inferring whether a reciever was expecting the pass and ruling that way we open up another can of worms. How many times have we seen a reciever not expecting a pass on a hot route??? I also am of the opinion that maybe the QB should get a little credit for getting it that close to someone with his back turned ;)

"Intentionally thrown incomplete in an area not occupied by an eligible reciever" is only one of the illegal passes. The one that should apply here is to save <b>loss of yardage</b> or time. He's definitely trying to save loss of yardage here - he's about to get sacked for a safety. There is no reasonable expectation that this pass will be completed (just like the one in the case book where the QB sails it 10 yards over the head of an eligible near the sideline while under a heavy rush. It's an illegal pass from the end zone, a safety whether accepted or not.

I think the defense needs the credit here, NOT the QB.

The post said "it is obvious he is getting rid of the ball to avoid the sack and the safety. It lands at the heals of eligible A32, but A32 had no inclination the pass was ever near him because he was blocking during the entire down."

Sounds like "intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage" to me.

Your assumption is correct.

So if you are ignoring that A32 was in the area and you judge that the QB was just trying to get rid of the ball to avoid the sack and you throw your flag while the pass is in the air. Suppose then that A32 catches the pass. In my opinion you can't rule on this play until you see where the pass goes.

If the pass is complete no foul in NF. Otherwise, I agree with Boselli - intentionally throwing an incomplete pass to conserve time or save loss of yardage.

It is interesting getting everyone's opinions on this. When I posted this, I was thinking that I'd call this an illegal forward pass. I believe the spirit of the passing rule is that Team A MUST make a good faith attempt to throw the pass to an eligible receiver. There is nothing in the rules that states a team must make a good faith attempt to actually catch the ball.

In this case, I don't think A7 is making a good faith attempt to throw the pass to an eligible.

I'm getting more confused on how I would rule with every post I read.

How about this. We rule forward progress was stopped and don't have any flags :D

I still side with Bob, unless of course progress was stopped :O.... This is just another of the many plays that must be seen to be believed...er I mean ruled upon... But I am pretty liberal here, if he gets it that close to an eligible reciever, I am going to give the offense the benefit of the doubt.....

I agree. This is just one of those plays where we can't assume what the QB's intent was. I guess we could go ask him if he was really trying to avoid the sack or truly trying to get the ball to his receiver. That would be the only way to know for sure.

Mike, If I read this accurately, are you saying that A7 when he "turns around to run further back in his endzone" is facing his end line and has his back to the field of play?

I would have to be there, but if he has no vision of where the ball is going and throws it over his head (backwards) to avoid getting sacked, then I would rule that this was done to avoid losing yardage and penalize him appropriately. It may be legal according to the rules, but his intent is obvious.

So JMN,
just to add a little more fuel, if the "reciever" happens to turn around and catch the ball is it still illegal, since his intent is "obvious"???

It wouldn't be illegal since it wasn't intentionally thrown incomplete.

good point, my bad.....hopefully we don't see a lot of these two situations this fall......how bout if the RB turns in time to see the ball and it drops through his fingers....still illegal since we knew what the QB's "intent" was??.....BTW you can come over and explain it to Coach A LOL

When I read "A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time," I understand it to mean that the QB throws the ball in a manner that it <u>can't</u> be completed. For example, he sails it across the sideline into the fifth row. In Mike's original play, I envisioned the QB just throwing it up for grabs in a manner such that if A32 was looking for the ball, he would have had a reasonable chance to catch it. I believed that Mike's question was more to determine whether A32's <u>awareness</u> of the pass was a factor in determining whether or not a foul should be called. I contend it's not. A32 being in the area is enough to keep this pass legal. If A32 is near the pass, you cannot say that the QB intentionally threw the ball incomplete. Did the QB throw the ball in order to avoid a loss of yardage and a safety? Sure he did...but he did it legally since it was thrown into an area occupied by an eligible receiver. If A32 was facing the oncoming pass and it fell at his feet, would you throw a flag?

In our scenario, he's already been contacted by the defensive player in his own end zone, running for his life with his back to the field. He has no idea where any of the eligibles are (unless he has a rearview mirror installed on his helmet) and he's just chucking it up. (Didn't Bledsoe do this in the AFC Championship game 2 years ago against Pittsburgh but not in the end zone?) Having it land in the vicinity of an eligible with his back to the QB doesn't qualify in my mind as there having been a reasonable expectation that this pass could be completed, in which case we don't have to examine the QB's intent, because we can see the end result - incomplete pass thrown to save loss of yardage.

Now, if I'm standing back there and I hear the reciever yelling to the QB, "Johnny, throw it, throw it over here!! I'm right behind you!!!" and he throws it toward his voice, that's a different story to me.

I would have to say I have no flag here.. Maybe A32 was supposed to be the outlet receiver and got caught in making a block and the QB was doing what he was supposed to. I am not a mind reader. Do you throw a flag cuz you think that wide reciever that you just flagged for OPI is cussing you out without saying a word out loud?? I would think not.

That is exactly the picture I am trying to portray. The QB (A7) is facing his end line and throws it with both hands over his head. The QB has NO idea where the ball will land and no hope of reasonably completing the pass.

I've actually seen this play a couple of times over the course of 5 years.

<b>OKAY, let's change the play a little and see if it makes a difference. See the bolded text below.</b>

A 3/23 at A-2 yard line. A7 drops back to pass. He is under a heavy rush and turns around to run further back in his endzone when he is contacted from behind by B95. Knowing he is going down, A7 simply throws the pass over his head toward the direction of the line. It is obvious he is getting rid of the ball to avoid the sack and the safety. It lands <s>at the heals of</s> <b>4 yards from</b> eligible A32, but A32 had no inclination the pass was ever near him because he was blocking during the entire down. How do you rule?

I still rule illegal forward pass. If the only requirement is that an eligible receiver be in the area, then 7-5-2d is unnecessary. What if he is facing the receiver, but intentionally throws it at his feet?

Reminds me of an old story. I don't recall the details but it went something like this:

<b>Player</b>: Hey Ref, can you eject me for something I'm thinking?

<b>Referee</b>: No.

<b>Player</b>: Then I think your a complete idiot. :D

REPLY: Then I think he's throwing it purposefully incomplete and it should be flagged per 7-5-2d. I never contended that 7-5-2d is unnecessary nor did I contend that the only requirement is that an eligible be in the area. I was offering my opinion that throwing it "up for grabs" near an eligible is not intentionally throwing it incomplete and therefore does not violate 7-5-2d, nor does it violate 7-5-2c. Your play clearly violates 7-5-2d.

Guys,
7-5-2c actually says " a pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible receiver"

This does not mean that it's legal if there is an eligible receiver in the area.

The case book cooment adds factors to look for in making an intentional grounding decision:

-Absence of eligible receivers
-the "dumping" to avoid a loss of yardage
-the skill of the passer and the pressure of the defense

Under these criteria, this is definitely illegal pass.

As I read the posts on this, I think I'm actually asking TWO questions.

1. Does A's intention to truly complete the pass play a role.

2. If A32's awareness plays a factor in determining if A7 was trying to actually complete the pass.

I agree. Of the three criteria listed, only one was met in this case.

I think that if the ball falls near the feet of an eligible receiver you have to be very careful calling the play anything but a legal incomplete pass. There is no way that we could be expected to know the route of the receiver, or wether the receiver was smart enough to remember when to look for the pass. If the QB is smart enough, and accurate enough, to fulfil all of the requirements of an incomplete pass, it's an incomplete pass. The only explanation that I would be comfortable giving to a coach on this play is that the ball was close to an eligible receiver. I'm not calling a penalty on the offense and explaining that I have read the QB's mind and know for a fact that he threw the ball low and behind on purpose.