AFC Championship - was that a TD?
 

Hello football officials, basketball official here....heck of a game between the Patriots and Ravens!

Everybody will, of course focus on Cundiff's missed FG - but what about that near-touchdown where the ball was knocked out of the receiver's hands while he was in the end zone?

It looked to me (fan who doesn't know the rules) like the guy caught it in the end zone and had full control before the defender swatted it out.

What's the application of the rules on that play? Curious....btw I was cheering for the Pats :D

Thanks in advance!

O/T - Pats Ravens
 

Hey folks,

I posted a query on the football forum, but doesn't look like they post much over there.

You bball guys who also ref football: wasn't that a TD before the defender knocked the ball out? Is it reviewable? :confused:

BTW- kicking position open in Baltimore next year :o

No it was not a catch. He has to "survive the hit or ground." He did neither of course. Also in the NFL they need to get two feet down, but still have to survive and immediate hit to show they have control. He had one foot down and could not hold on as bringing the ball into his body. That is much more the philosophy used at their level, but applied by many at other levels. I had a similar call in my State Final that even had more steps, but he never survived the hit or ground so I waved it off. ;)

Peace

Okay, I think I get it.

Thanks, Rut - I just KNEW you'd be the first to respond :D

Under NFL rules.....the call was correct on the field of incomplete pass. A receiver must complete the entire "process" of catching the football on a pass play.

It is a rule that I am sure will be reviewed by the competition committee during the off season because of the number of apparent catches on plays or scoring plays that were waived off throughout the year.

What does this mean? Survive the hit or ground?

Exactly what it says. You cannot get hit immediately and the ball pop out. You cannot hit the ground immediately and the ball pop out. There was a very good reason the Calvin Johnson play was ruled the way it was. It has nothing to do with steps and feet if you cannot display you have control. No cheap catches or interceptions. ;)

Peace

So, what defines "immediately" if not feet or steps? What do you have to do to be considered in control?

I honestly do not know if there is a definition for what you consider immediate. But usually the thought process is to make a "football move." If you are not ready to run up field, you are not going to award a cheap catch. For the laymen, turn up field as if you are going to run for more yardage after you have displayed control. If you cannot do that, then it is an incomplete pass even if it takes place in the end zone. This is done to not have cheap catch-fumble players as well. They would not have called that play a catch and fumble at the 50, so it is not a catch in the end zone.

peace

If the rule was not changed last year, it was not going to get changed this year. They have been calling it this way for years to allow for more consistency. They have been very consistent, this is why you do not listen to the media about these plays.

Peace

The better question is why was Vernon Davis flagged for his TD celebration in the NFC game for standing on the TV camera stand? Why is jumping into the stands legal, but that is not? What is the difference? He didn't have the ball or use it for a prop either.

And by the way, I think the way the NFL rules are written/enforced are ridiculous when it comes to completing a catch (Like the Calvin Johnson catch last year), but the play in the OP from today was not even close to being a catch IMO.

The Lambeau Leap was grandfathered in.

Using a camera stand wasn't.

It was not a TD because the ball was knocked loose just as the left foot came down, and therefore did not meet the requirement for retaining possession for an element of time.

This part makes a tonne of sense in explaining the call.

This.

As far as the incomplete, I wouldn't have a catch under NCAA either.

Ridiculous. One team gets to keep their "tradition", but everyone else gets penalized.

Just another reason to hate the Packers :D

You can thank instant replay for that. It has been a positive overall for the NFL but it has also made some rules or their interpretations become way too technical. This is an example. I prefer leaving this up to the judgement of the covering official on whether the receiver had control. When you go to frame by frame analysis of the catch in slow motion the interpretations have to become much more technical.

The same thing will happen in baseball when they eventually want to review every tag on a runner or the turn at 2nd base on a double play. They will get very technical on those rules as well.

There are several "celebrations" that are grandfathered-in -- it's not just the Lambeau leap.

I may be wrong but replay didn't overturn this call, correct?

The call was made on the field and was not even replayed.

Peace

Replay did not review this play. It was not a scoring play (no automatic review), and Harbaugh did not challenge it. Had he challenged it, he would have lost.

Clearly the correct call, given the current NFL 'catch' philosophy. 20 years ago, this would have been a TD.

It was under 2 minutes so it was out of Harbaugh's hands anyway.

And I do not even think this would have been a TD years ago, he never got down his other foot.

Peace

They won't review the rule...they've had the same philosophy/rule on catches for quite some time now...and they've reviewed it too (especially after the correctly ruled incomplete pass by Calvin Johnson) and decided to keep the rule the same. They have the rule because they don't want "cheap" fumbles.

As to the play in question, it was correctly ruled an incomplete pass. The player did not even get a second foot down before the ball was knocked out of his hands and the replay booth was correct in not initiating a review.

NFL Rule Book (2011-2012)

Rule 8, Section 1

COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body other than his hands to the ground, or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball,and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

So if he had gotten that second foot down before the defender knocked the ball out of his hands, would it have been a TD? Or would he have had to take another step?

That meets (a) and (b) so it would be the judgment of the official as to whether (c) was met.

It's a judgement call as to whether the player was able to perform a football move. Even if that second foot would have gotten down, the hit was simultaneous to the second foot coming down and by rule, that would be incomplete (look at note 2).

The hit could have come a second later after the second foot came down and he had not controlled the ball and made a "football move" it is still incomplete. The feet coming down is only apart of a catch, other things have to happen to complete that catch. And as I stated before, it it would not be ruled a catch an a fumble in the middle of the field, it certainly is not going to be ruled the same at in the end zone.

Peace

I agree...there's an element of time involved in making a catch...a lot of people assume ball in hand+two feet=instant catch...if this were true, there would be a lot of "cheap" fumbles.

So if this was a HS game and you were on that play, would you have ruled it a TD, Jeff? Just trying to understand the rule better without having to listen to the mouths on the tv...

No I would not. And fortunately or unfortunately I was on YouTube with a similar call in my State Final game in November. I use the same basic philosophy in both HS and college games. And unlike D1 college or most HS games, we have no replay. You better hand me the ball after all of that if I did not rule you made a football move before hitting the ground or getting hit by a defender. And at those levels they need just one foot down in most cases (they can be pushed out to complete a pass).

Peace

Are you saying that if the receiver does not get a foot down but is pushed out thus preventing the foot down , then it can still be a completion? Don't have a clue about NFHS but that is not the case in NCAA.

NFHS 2-4-1 "CATCH":

A catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball
which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds or being contacted by
an opponent in such a way that he is prevented from returning to the ground
inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball.

Yes I am saying that. ;)

Peace

Well, then I am saying that is NOT true under NCAA rules

I already know this, which is why I put it the way I did. I was asked what I would call in a HS game and my HS games are under NF Rules.

Peace

You indicated at "those levels" (plural) which makes it appear you are referring to HS and college.