This happened at least 5 times in OHSAA Finals!
 

7.5.2 SITUATION C: Quarterback A1 drops back to pass and while under a good
defensive rush, he throws the ball forward: (a) at the feet of two onrushing defensive
linemen; or (b) 15 yards behind A3 who has run a deep post pattern; or (c)
5 to 10 feet over the head of eligible A3 who lined up near a sideline. RULING:
Illegal forward pass in (a). In (b) and (c), the referee will have to judge whether
the pass was intentionally thrown incomplete or whether A1 was simply unable
to throw the ball close to A3. COMMENT: Some factors to look for in making an
intentional-grounding decision are absence of eligible offensive receivers in the
area and the “dumping” to avoid loss of distance. The ability and skill of the passer
and the pressure of the defense are also factors to consider. (7-5-2d)

It was not called once!

Not surprised... the rule says, "In (b) and (c), the referee will have to judge whether the pass was intentionally thrown incomplete or whether A1 was simply unable to throw the ball close to A3."

In most of these cases, the ruling is going to be that he was simply unable (perhaps he was covered too well).

OK what is your point? Obviously you did not read the entire ruling.

Peace

Guess they judged not.

Are you sure it was at least five times? Could it have been less than five? Are you sure you got them all counted? It's imperative that we know the exact number in order to give you our best guess as to what the guys on the field saw and why they ruled like they did. :rolleyes:

Just in case you missed it.

In (b) and (c), the referee will have to judge whether the pass was intentionally thrown incomplete or whether A1 was simply unable to throw the ball close to A3.

It's a judgment call. And guess what? Your judgment don't mean dick.

Was the QB out of the tackle box?;)

I was at a game where the back judge threw the flag for intentional gounding. Really. He missed the spot of the foul by about 20 yards.
There was no doubt about the intent as the ball hit about lane 8 of the track surrounding the field.
When I was talking to the opposite wing official later, he said the coach (whose QB threw the ball) didn't have a problem with the call. It was that obvious. Except to maybe the R.

Anyone that watched all six final games like I did knows what I am talking about.

the referee will have to judge whether
the pass was intentionally thrown incomplete or whether A1 was simply unable
to throw the ball close to A3.


Pretty easy to tell when a kid is dumping the ball 25 yards out of bounds to prevent a sack. I wish they would just take IG out of the NFHS rules altogether.

Knowing that both stadiums have very little room between the sideline and the stands, dumping the ball 25 yards out of bounds would put the ball at least 10 rows deep into the seats.

Didn't happen..... Go away.....

Oh, it happened!

Did it ever occur to you that maybe officials view this rule differently than you do? You say it is obvious and it is not called, but for some reason officials do not agree with you on this when they are on the field. That is telling if you ask me.

Peace

Not that I'm in a state that uses NFHS for football, but really? :rolleyes: I'm sure coaches all over your state are clamoring to allow QBs to ground the ball as they please!

He got a million e-mails from coaches that agree with him.

25 yards out of bounds :rolleyes:

You are not a very good liar.

Hmmm... 25 yards out of bounds, plus 25 more between the middle of the field and the sideline... plus some sort of angle to make this a forward pass... let's give the benefit of the doubt and say he's moved halfway to the sideline, and the pass is at a 45 degree angle. That's 53+ yards in the air. This kid throw that far?

Maty Mauk can throw the ball 70yards on a rope. He has signed with Missouri and has thrown a ton of big plays!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVke--5_YUw

Maty Mauk - Kenton - Stats and Info

OK, did this kid throw all the passes in question?

Peace

No.

Then why did you post this kid? Most kids at HS do not have that kind of arm, even the ones that get to the State Finals.

Peace

He was one of them and there were others that threw the ball away more than once, WAY over someones head OOB and no call. They (The Rs in All games that it happened in) would just look at and point at the "intended" receiver like that is the only criteria. :D

We have gone from 25 yards OOB to "way over someone's head OOB".

Who decides if "way OOB" is illegal?

Never has been you, never will be you. Deal with it.

BigJohn:

When considering IG, we often give any benefit of doubt to the QB. Often I can look at a QB's face & tell whether he meant to ground or not. That's something you can't tell from the sideline or the stands -- you just have to be there.

Consider a play with a single receiver on the sideline, and little or no pressure on the QB. If he's covered, the QB may intentionally overthrow him to avoid a possible INT. Did he mean to do it -- quite likely. Does it rise to the level of a foul? -- no.

That's why the rulesmakers put the "referee's judgment" clause into the Case Book.

The QB's today are better than ever. I find it rare that one cannot throw beyond the players on the sideline.
I started working 4-man crews for varsity then all went to 5-man here because of the expanded passing game. It was not the short passes that casue this change.
A good R should be able to tell by a QB's performance and poise the intent. A ball that hits the track beyond the bench area by a QB that fires strikes most of the time would be to me a pretty good indication of grounding if the QB is pressured into throwing to avoid an imminent loss.

I am pretty sure that is why the R always makes such a big deal about pointing out the "intended receiver." Like, "I saw him try to throw the ball to that kid, he just couldn't."

I saw more than one time whn a QB zinged a ball at a receivers feet so he wouldn't take a sack or get picked and many times when the ball was PURPOSELY thrown over the head and OOB, but if I say 25 yards that makes me a liar and out of my head overreactor. BS! It is not called as the rule and the case book play states and we all know it!

Maybe if we had a tackle box, it would get called more when the QB stands in the pocket and does it!

So... why haven't you posted any video of these so-called "intentional grounding" plays? I suspect that it's because you KNOW that they're not actually IG according to the spirit and intent of the rules, which means that you're just trolling.

Feel free to prove me wrong by posting some video clips, otherwise GTFO.

The videos are not out there to be posted but are for sale by the OHSAA for $30 per game. They are on STO and I have them DVRd. I am sure video proof would not do much good as it never does on these forums.


e. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve
time.
EXCEPTION: It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to
the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.


d. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive
receiver.


Two different things altogether!

QB rolls out to his own bench, gets out of the mythical tackle box, just before he is sacked he throws a pass 10 yeards over the head of (or directly at the ground in front of) A88 who is covered. The OC yells out "good job #14, that is how you avoid a sack!"


LJ hears all of this and see it as well, should he throw a flag? :o

bigjohn, I would suggest the real problem here is that you are speaking to an audience that is absolutely, and correctly, convinced you simply have no idea of what you are complaining about.

Your overtly myopic view of matters is a classic example of why countless decisions have been made to deliberately EXCLUDE coaches input from the decision making process related to judgment calls.

There are QBs that throw more, but I would not say that all are much better. There are a lot of teams running the spread for example and do not have a QB that can throw the ball that well. And HS QBs still have a very basic and generic passing attack to deal with. Most are not throwing 20 and 30 yard passes. Most HS passing attacks are under 10 yards. Actually most teams that run the spread I see are more about running the football. Also in our crew mechanic the R does not make this call on their own. They get help from other officials as to who was in position and then the R has the final say. The R can tell if they were being hit or just dumping the ball, but does not follow the ball. Heck you can be called for IG even if you throw it at someone under the right circumstances.

Peace

So if he is in the pocket and he throws a bad pass in the direction of the receiver, should that be IG too?

And what does any of that mean? That does not mean it is a penalty. There is nothing in the rule that says we consider other comments. There is a way to avoid a sack even by rule and not be called for a penalty, just like there is a way to hold without being called for holding.

Peace

It means he was coached to do it and is doing it on purpose, and no I don't think it has anything to do with being in the pocket or not, I just think some guys coach what they see on Saturday. JMHO

And your point is what? Many HS routes are basic and even when they try to throw the ball to a receiver, they do a bad job. And many QBs do not have the ability to throw the ball well out of the pocket. Again, it was not called for a reason and unless you can show some video we are going in circles. The problem is you are giving your opinion on something you have never done.

Peace

The reason it was not called is that most trainers say not to call it if there is a receiver in the area that the ball was thrown towards regardless of how uncatchable the ball is.
They get the uncatchable rule confused with IG which says that a ball thrown intentionally incomplete is an illegal pass!

I doubt that. Then again how long have you been officiating again?

That is what I thought. ;)

Peace

John, did it "happen" in the D II game? If it did I will ask my assn. member who was an official in the game what he saw.:)

Tom, the kid from avon was 27-50 and I am pretty sure he threw a few in the seats or darn near to prevent a sack.

Justin O'Rourke 27-50-0int 325yds 3rush 32yds 0sacks

It's getting harder and harder to take you seriously ... but I'll try. Surely you understand that a QB who is "just about to get sacked" is likely off-balance, on the run, going down, etc. Such a QB has more leeway, as it's much harder to throw accurately in those conditions.

Why in the hell would anyone take this narcissistic clown seriously?

His shtick is to get on message boards, and rip officials, period.

He's been publicly admonished on the boards by the administrators, yet nothing has changed. He boasts about the fact that he's not anonymous and actually thinks that not being so lends some credibility to his rants.

Hmmm... I don't recall being told that by any trainer. Ever.
They do? How do you know this? How can you assume or even guess someone is getting two rules confused? Especially having not ever been in their shoes? That's quite a leap, even for you. I promise you I've never had anyone confuse these two rules - which have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

I thought his schtick was coming on message boards, mis-explaining a rule, and then complaining that no one goes by his misunderstandings. Or was that Robert G?

Yeah, I don't know what I am looking at or talking about but IG and HTR are never called especially in the state final games.

Here is an example of a training powerpoint. Notice no mention of just throwing the ball away, even if over the receiver's head.

http://www.doverpatriots.com/images/..._NFL-_NCAA.ppt

Ooooooooooo PowerPoint made from a place or organization that most of us have no association with. So what!!!!

Many here know the rule and many of us work both codes.

Peace

My point is this PPT was made like many using the same language many are using. Most offical think that if there is a receiver in the area it can never be IG. That is not what the rules or Case books say!

Please provide the research data you have in hand to prove this allegation.

Trying to respond to you in a useful manner, again here.

Your posts tend to rub people the wrong way because they invariably tend to point to an official SOMEWHERE not doing his job in a way that you (lacking any training) felt he should. So people see that you are the poster and they shut down and don't give your posts a chance.

Those of us who don't shut down and actually do try to reason out the situations posted likely get completely turned off by the kind of statement you've made here. This is the second such post. Not only have you decided that you (lacking any training) understand the rules better than most officials... but now you've gone further and decided that you also know what "most officials think". Perhaps one local idiot that officiated one of your games and was foolish enough to discuss his rules interpretations with you does think in the way you say. But you're not going to get a whole lot of honest discussion if you continue to tell us (officials ourselves) what "most officials think".

NO official that I've ever discussed this rule with thinks in the manner you have attributed to "most" of us. None, zero, zilch, nada. NO ONE. Perhaps some rookies come in with such absurd notions - but if they've gone through the training, and actually listened, there is no way they come OUT of their training with the understanding you describe.

Most COACHES believe what you state. Perhaps even most coach-potato-self-proclaimed-rules-experts without any officials' training believe what you state. Officials don't. If you want to continue discussing situations here with us, stop making assumptions as to what we think.

Look guys, I defend officials more than anyone. I know it is a thankless job and very important part of the game of HS football. I just don't understand why the powers that be don't instruct them to call this rule as written. If the ball is thrown away to save a sack it should be called. There is no tackle box and no requirement for a receiver in the area.

7-5-2e stands on its own!

e. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time

I would just like to see it called this way or change the rule!

No you don't. You spend all your time trying to tell us what we should call and why we don't. Even when you have shown video of plays, you then tried to claim we did not realize what we were seeing or did not want to admit what

And this just shows how ignorant you are about officiating. This is also why I say to you have never done a lick of officiating in your life or career. Rules all have a philosophy. They can write rules to say something, but you also have to have some idea of how to come to those conclusions to enforce those rules. First of all none of us can get into someone's head and know what they are intentionally doing. Just like we do not call holding based on simple holding either and things like point of attack, strong legs and advantage/disadvantage are considered. The game has so many facets to it and so does this rule. We do not see games with the best talent at the HS varsity level and often times when they try to complete a pass they are throwing bad passes. Also you have no idea what everyone does across the country either. Every crew I have been on calls this from time to time. When I was a referee for 5 years I called this time to time. I even called it once where the QB was throwing directly at an eligible receiver.

And unlike you I have actually been on a State Final field twice. I have actually had to call some things that many have watched or complained about. I have had to answer questions as to why things happen in a game that the state is watching. You have no idea what all officials are thinking and often they are not always agreeing with calls you can make in these situations. I am sure there were officials that disagreed with these calls. But then again you consider the source and the motives of those people. Some officials are complaining no matter what you do. Others are complaining because a philosophy or rule was not followed based on training.

Your issue is local and with your games. If you have a problem then talk to your people, do not come here when you cannot show us one video to even have us debate. There has got to be a play on YouTube somewhere if these were so egregious right?

Peace

Not here you don't. Much to the contrary.

Here's part of the issue. How in the world do you know what is or is not being instructed? STOP making assumptions regarding thoughts and acts of which you know nothing.

Obviously.
Obviously.

The error is in your interpretation. Unless you are psychic (maybe you are since you keep telling us what most people think)... you do NOT know the intent of the passer. All you have to go by is physical evidence. I know that I personally have called IG on a pass that did, in fact, go toward a receiver, and I know that my crew has called others. Why make that call? Because the QB was not trying to hit the receiver but rather just threw it somewhere, and a receiver happened to be there. However, in MOST cases, if there is a receiver in the direction the ball is thrown and the QB is looking in that direction, he is going to get the benefit of the doubt - simply because the official does not KNOW the intent of the QB. A QB that is running for his life is less accurate than one in the pocket. A QB that is in the process of going down is also less accurate than one who is not. Unless you KNOW the QB was not trying to complete the pass, you can't call him for IG.

If you can't understand this - and understand that this IS the way we are taught, then we can't help you.

I meant I defend you when I am at games, coaching or spectating. I hear what you are saying but there were at least 5 times in the state final that it was very clear that the QB was dumping the ball OOB over the intended receiver's head and it was not called IG.

That is a State of Ohio problem, I agree. It should be remedied.
I am the champion of officials and often respected by them in person. Too bad you guys here take my questions and comments so personally.

Thanks for the banter. Time for a break.

I rest my case..........

I do not know who would take it personally, but you are offering no valuable discussion points. All you are saying is this was not called and claimed the officials ignored the rule, while at the same time not showing the video or anything that we can honestly debate. Then you claim you want it to be called and that the officials are totally ignoring the rule. If you are a champion you certainly do not show that here. Officials make mistakes all the time, but it is different to say they made a mistake then say they ignored or refused to apply a rule. And this is all coming from a person that has never put on a whistle in a real game and has no idea what that actually means to do that. You are not a champion (other than having a big mouth) when you say the things you do.

Peace