Tennessee---Vandy Whistle or not

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

What a mess.

The white hat should've known this wasn't reviewable. The HL should've owned up to his IW (or if you want to call it a mistaken notion that the runner was down, so be it).

The guy in the booth, supposedly, has no audio of the game. It's merely a visual replay -- so if the R didn't tell the booth that the whistle had blown, he's going to review the play assuming a whistle hadn't blown.

Clearly, the whistle had blown.

Is it possible that the other officials did not know it was an IW? I am not sure how that would be the case, but is it just possible that he ruled a downed player and did not know he was totally and completely wrong at the time.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This whole mess started with bad mechanics by the H. I will assume that NCAA keys have him taking the 2nd receiver.

Keys have nothing to do with this play. You only follow your key for a moment and once the ball is thrown you are ruling on many things, not just your key. And with this being an interception, he should have gotten off that key long before this play.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

At the snap, he moves immediately downfield. However, this places you out of position when players need to "come back to the ball". At the time of the INT, he was actually closer to the B GL and than the players were. As such, he was not in position to see a bobble that may have taken place, and he was straight-lined in respect to the player's knees.

This is also not the mechanic, you hold and flow for a short wing. You have forward progress, but you also have to make sure the ball has crossed the LOS or the pass based on many actions. He just missed it and should have gotten help from other officials. The deep wings, umpire and even Referee in some cases could have seen the knee down and she should not have assumed which is what I feel this official did and blew the whistle.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is it possible that the other officials did not know it was an IW? I am not sure how that would be the case, but is it just possible that he ruled a downed player and did not know he was totally and completely wrong at the time.

It's irrelevant whether it's called an IW or whether it's called a missed judgment. The HL signaled and blew his whistle. The play is over.

The HL should've said to the WH -- "I blew my whistle. I signaled. I ruled him down."

If he had done that, I can't *imagine* the WH would go on the microphone and say there was no signal or whistle. The WH may not have heard the whistle or seen the signal and was relying on his guys to tell him what actually happened.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's irrelevant whether it's called an IW or whether it's called a missed judgment. The HL signaled and blew his whistle. The play is over.

The HL should've said to the WH -- "I blew my whistle. I signaled. I ruled him down."

If he had done that, I can't *imagine* the WH would go on the microphone and say there was no signal or whistle. The WH may not have heard the whistle or seen the signal and was relying on his guys to tell him what actually happened.

You are right Rich. I was dealing with more with what that official believed at the time. I had a rather big time game that was on TV once where a partner ruled a player down on a fumble and we treated it as a player down and not an IW. Unfortunately no one could help him at the time. But it showed up on tape. What they ended up doing in this SEC game was totally wrong.

Peace

[Berkut]

This actually raises kind of an interesting issue.

When does bad judgement become an IW, by rule?

I mean, if it is a close play, and I judge that the runner is down and blow my whistle, how is that different (if at all) from an IW?

After all, I judged that the runner was down, so it isn't really IW, right? It might be wrong, but that is different (I think) from me seeing a player go down, blow my whistle, and THEN realize that player doesn't even have the ball (for example). In that case, it is clearly an IW, and hence the IW rules should be applied, as opposed to just saying the play is over...right?

I guess what I am getting at is that this isn't necessarily a IW at all - the covering official thought the runner was down. He was wrong of course, but then, officials are wrong sometimes. Sometimes we think the runner stepped out when they did not, that isn't an IW, right? Sometimes we think the pass was incomplete when it isn't, that isn't an IW either. Nobody is going to get the chance to replay the down when the wing guy says the runner stepped OOB even if they did not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Berkut

This actually raises kind of an interesting issue.

When does bad judgement become an IW, by rule?

I mean, if it is a close play, and I judge that the runner is down and blow my whistle, how is that different (if at all) from an IW?

You are right, it isn't that different. But in this case they should not have allowed a score and the down, "inning" or overtime was over at that point the official blew the whistle.

After all, I judged that the runner was down, so it isn't really IW, right? It might be wrong, but that is different (I think) from me seeing a player go down, blow my whistle, and THEN realize that player doesn't even have the ball (for example). In that case, it is clearly an IW, and hence the IW rules should be applied, as opposed to just saying the play is over...right?

Originally Posted by Berkut

I guess what I am getting at is that this isn't necessarily a IW at all - the covering official thought the runner was down. He was wrong of course, but then, officials are wrong sometimes. Sometimes we think the runner stepped out when they did not, that isn't an IW, right? Sometimes we think the pass was incomplete when it isn't, that isn't an IW either. Nobody is going to get the chance to replay the down when the wing guy says the runner stepped OOB even if they did not.

It is still an IW, but a player not having the ball and a player with possession are going to be handled differently by rule.

Peace

[Berkut]

Actually, by NCAA rule, there is no difference between a player with or without the ball when it comes to IW. The rule doesn't even mention a fumble, except when discussing one of the cases that determine options.

As far as the NCAA rules are concerned, I actually think this *IS* an IW. And I think someone calling someone OOB who was not could also be an IW, by rule. Although I would guess in a practical sense, it doesn't come up often.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Berkut

This actually raises kind of an interesting issue.

When does bad judgement become an IW, by rule?

I mean, if it is a close play, and I judge that the runner is down and blow my whistle, how is that different (if at all) from an IW?

After all, I judged that the runner was down, so it isn't really IW, right? It might be wrong, but that is different (I think) from me seeing a player go down, blow my whistle, and THEN realize that player doesn't even have the ball (for example). In that case, it is clearly an IW, and hence the IW rules should be applied, as opposed to just saying the play is over...right?

I guess what I am getting at is that this isn't necessarily a IW at all - the covering official thought the runner was down. He was wrong of course, but then, officials are wrong sometimes. Sometimes we think the runner stepped out when they did not, that isn't an IW, right? Sometimes we think the pass was incomplete when it isn't, that isn't an IW either. Nobody is going to get the chance to replay the down when the wing guy says the runner stepped OOB even if they did not.

I think it only becomes an IW if someone (i.e. the U) comes to him with absolutely certainty the knee wasn't down and the H decides he was correct. Or the R takes information from both officials and determines the U was correct. Then the ruling of the runner being down is treated as an IW. This would give the team in possession (UT in this case) the option of replaying the down or taking the ball at the spot where the runner was incorrectly ruled down. They would not give the ball back to Vandy so an IW and ruling the runner was down would have the same outcome.

[PSU213]

In this case it was either an incorrect call or an IW...a mess either way.

This question then comes up. Hypothetical situation. 4/8 late in the game, A2 is running and it is ruled that his knee is down 3 yards short of the LTG. Can his it be reviewed to see if his knee was actually? If it is determinied that his knee was not down, is it now treated like an IW (i.e. A's choice to replay the down)?

[PSU213]

One other thing...this is for the 'schoarly' gentleman who narrated the YouTube video in the OP: Vandy is Vandy because the school was started from money given by Cornelius Vanderbilt. Sorry, it was bothering me. Not that this guy will ever read this...just that, believe it or not, there are more important things in life that football (OMG, I can't believe I said that).

[APG]

Originally Posted by PSU213

In this case it was either an incorrect call or an IW...a mess either way.

This question then comes up. Hypothetical situation. 4/8 late in the game, A2 is running and it is ruled that his knee is down 3 yards short of the LTG. Can his it be reviewed to see if his knee was actually? If it is determinied that his knee was not down, is it now treated like an IW (i.e. A's choice to replay the down)?

You could review the spot in relation to a first down, but if replay showed the runner wasn't actually down when he was ruled down, that is not reviewable. Also, inadvertent whistles are not reviewable either.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is it possible that the other officials did not know it was an IW? I am not sure how that would be the case, but is it just possible that he ruled a downed player and did not know he was totally and completely wrong at the time.



Keys have nothing to do with this play. You only follow your key for a moment and once the ball is thrown you are ruling on many things, not just your key. And with this being an interception, he should have gotten off that key long before this play.




This is also not the mechanic, you hold and flow for a short wing. You have forward progress, but you also have to make sure the ball has crossed the LOS or the pass based on many actions. He just missed it and should have gotten help from other officials. The deep wings, umpire and even Referee in some cases could have seen the knee down and she should not have assumed which is what I feel this official did and blew the whistle.

Peace

Rut, the exact same play just happened in the MN game.

What did the wing official do? He BACKED UP from the LS, rather than going downfield!

And guess what? He had a great look on the play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Rut, the exact same play just happened in the MN game.

What did the wing official do? He BACKED UP from the LS, rather than going downfield!

And guess what? He had a great look on the play.

I was telling you the mechanic, not debating what officials actually do.

Peace