Legal Snap?
 

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The snap is legal, but the play isn't.

From CB 9.9.1 Sit B.:

"(A)ctions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal."

Dead ball USC.

Pretty sure we saw this last year.

Nothing wrong with the snap - but his shouting to the coach and the pretense that a snap was not imminent makes this a 15 yarder.

Agreed. There are a number of things wrong with this play. As Ct1 says the play is illegal on it's own. You can normally figure if a coach is involved it's illegal. Also the QB is not set for a second before the snap after his shift. Since he took two steps to get there the foul is illegal motion, not shift. The play should have been calle dead immediately for the USL, but failing this it should have been called back for the motion foul. The crew that allowed this should be ashamed of themselves!

SECTION 40 SNAP
ART. 1 . . . A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from
its position on the ground.
ART. 2 . . . The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other
than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous
backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s)
of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.
ART. 3 . . . The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player.


I do not think this snap fits the requirements in 2-40-2 of course the NFHS defines immediate as 3-5 seconds, but I don't agree with that either.

CHECKCHECKCHECKCHECKCHECK.

Which part do you believe it doesn't meet the requirements of?

We did see this last year and it still irritates me that this is shown all over the place as a great and wonderful display of coaching. We make ourselves look bad when we let these types of plays go.

With that said, I still wonder how mr. smart coach would feel if he ran this play and a defensive player came running up and laid out his qb? My guess is he would want us to bail him out and call a foul on the defense...

Do not agree that it is quick! or immediately leaves the snapper's hand. It is very slow and deliberate, in my opinion.

I agree with everything here except this. The two steps thing is puzzling: that's not in the rule. I agree it's illegal motion, but the ruling has nothing to do with how many steps he took: it's because he's a back in motion and the motion is toward the LOS.

In a pre-game conference with a middle school coach this year, he said he had a trick play where the QB goes in motion.

I said "OK, is that it?"

He said, "Well, I'll yell over to him something along 'Come on, that's not the play!' then he'll go in motion and we'll snap it."

Me: "Sorry coach, not legal."

Him: "I guess we won't run that this week."

:rolleyes:

Had a coach run this play in an 8th grade game this season... only he didn't tell us about it beforehand. Luckily for me, when I flagged it, enforced it, and explained it to him, all he said was "huh, I didn't know that".

He also ran a fumblerooski play a couple of times. One that I didn't call because I didn't see what happened (only two officials, not enough eyes) and couldn't tell what had transpired until I was reconstructing it in my mind during the next timeout, and one that I passed on because that team was down 42-0 at the time. I did, however, explain to the coach that his play wasn't legal.

Like this??? http://youtu.be/kQbAP-K28J8

In the first video of this thread, my opinion is illegal snap.
The snap is not quick. It is a very slow motion of the right arm.
It is not backwards. There is a discrete lateral motion of the ball as it comes up prior to it going over the snapper's left shoulder. It is very likely that in order for this motion to be possible, the ball would have had to be traveling forward at some point.
It does not immediately leave the snapper's hand. There is a visible pause between when the motion of the snapper's hand ends and the quarterback begins to touch the ball.

The video immediately above, which shows the play "gone bad" actually would fit my definition of a legal snap. While not not "hasty" it was not a slow or discontinuous motion. It was also backwards, and the snapper immediately released the ball to the quarterback.
Then the quarterback got popped. As well he should be, trying to make a travesty of the game.

Legal snap...simply disagree with jchamp's and bigjohn's judgement of the snap.

Fair enough. As long as the rules book includes language that leaves room for judgment, such as "quick" and "immediately", there will always be that potential.
Some day, the human element will be completely removed from the game and our job can be performed by automotons basing their calls on the use of an irrefutably measurable rule set. Until then, the closest we have is EA Sports. And I'm content to let it be that way for a while longer.

Quick and immediate have a different speed for 12 year olds than 17 year olds.

OK, then just put it this way. Picking up the ball and handing it to the QB is not a snap. Period.

Know what's really funny? We already had this issue discussed about that video in a thread here. And I'm pretty sure some of you wrote in that thread.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Illegal snap. Shut 'er down!

shall not:
a. Remove both hands from the ball.
b. Make any movement that simulates a snap.
c. Fail to clearly pause before the snap.
d. Following adjustment, lift or move the ball other than in a legal snap.

a - he didn't remove both hands from the ball.
b - he didn't make any movement that simulates a snap.
c - he (the center) clearly paused.
d - I recognize that you don't agree that this was a legal snap, and if you have a beef, it's there --- but given that this was a legal snap, he did not lift or move the ball other than in a legal snap.

I would say what happened on this play was much closer to a lift than a snap. Any official on the field should be looking for a reason to kill this play and I just gave you an excellent one. Illegal snap.

Why would anyone argue that that was a legal snap?

Because it is a legal snap, for reasons that several other posters have already described to you.

I think this graphic sums it up nicely:
http://ehmsnbc.com/wp-content/upload...dead_horse.jpg

There is nothing legal about picking the ball up and handing it to the QB. Now, on any given Friday, there will be a U who doesn't want to call it that way so I guess that night it is LEGAL. That is why we have plays like this being called the greatest trick play ever!

I agree there can be different interpretations of the rules but no one can look at this video and say, that is a good snap.

Love it!
 

The only thing that would make this better would be for the crew to actually call the penalty on the offense.

Hey coach...your kid just got rocked...
And by the way, we're going to stick you for 15...:eek:

Maybe you've missed the fact that this play was illegal for a completely different reason.

Regarding the snap - the fact that you keep saying "there's nothing legal about picking the ball up and handing it to the QB" doesn't make it true. By RULE, the snap we see in this video is legal. The snap is, in fact, by definition "picking the ball up and handing it to the QB". Just because you are accustomed to seeing this under the legs of the center (because such a snap provides more protection for the offense than any other way of snapping) doesn't make it the ONLY way to snap. In fact, the old stand-to-the-side and hand it to the QB method, while antiquated, is still legal (albeit a great way to get your QB killed).

The play we see here is not legal ... but not because of the snap.

No I understand unfair acts completely, my point is it is not a legal snap. LOL!!!!!

OK ... but you've been told by official after official that by current rule and interpretation, it is.

and by many that it is not legal, hmmmmmmmmmm!

I have a solution. Get your behind off the sideline and do it for yourself. Then tell us what your peers say and how you call the game. It is a lot easier to run your mouth at what should be done and you have never done it once. Because if you call the wrong thing unlike here, you might not go back or work that level you want again. This was a legal snap and you have not shown anything that suggests otherwise, but your typical complaining about things you are unwilling to do.

Peace

There are guys reading this and some have posted that think you are wrong, Mr Rutledge. They say the snap is not quick enough or immediate. That is not just my interpretation. I also have talked with officials that work games every Friday and some that have even done State Finals, that do not agree with you. So it is like I always say, the rules change every Friday night depending on the crew and there skill set and interprtations.

So they think I am wrong? Good for them. My question is what levels do they work? What positions do they hold in their state, are they a clinician, an assignor or a rules interpreter? There are also people here that think you should call something without seeing it too, what does that prove? You are the one that started this and there are a lot of others that seem to agree that this is a legal snap. And again if you have never had to put your behind on the line to rule on these plays, I at least have respect for those that officiate. You are just a baby that wants to debate things your big behind is unwilling to do yourself. If you think the only rules discussions I have or others have is on this site, you have no idea. Or how much some of us go back and forth with interpretations and if we dispute we go to those higher up to get clarification. But when you are sitting in the cozy press box you would never know that. ;)

Peace

+1

Back on the sidelines this year, sir. My HC thought he needed my rule knowledge and game abilities on the field.

You and I know it all comes down to what the crew that is on the field wants to call, so it really doesn't matter what you or I think or say. I am just saying I don't think the snap in this video is a legal and there were officials that agreed with me.

We are not talking about crews that worked your games. We are looking at a rather old video and we are ruling on what happen in the video. Of course different crews are going to be different in ability that is why some are not working at all at this time of the year and never will be like crews I am on and others I know well. And on my crew I have three football IHSA Clinicians and if we have any dispute as to what a ruling is, we know where to go to ask above our heads. And the 5 of us run more camps or asked to clinician in football as well as my background as a clinician in basketball. So of course not every crew is going to have that background or knowledge that we would have or others that are similar in your area and other areas. This is why I do not listen to sophomore crews for how to do things in our state. Wow, so you found a couple of people that agree with you. I can show any video and not have 100% of the people agreed with what took place. That is not unusual, but sometimes you can tell those that seem to disagree why they disagree.

Peace

Fasinating.

This was actually one of the plays of the day last week. The ruling quoted was that when a QB is not set before the snap after taking one step as part of his shift the foul should be illegal shift. When he takes more than one step he is in motion and the foul is illegal motion. Not that it makes any difference in enforcement.

Fascinating...how did you get the the 'm' key unstuck?

So one official agrees with you and 10 do not...and that proves your point?

Like Rogers Redding. He basically says slapping the snap is either encroachment or snap infraction, if the snap is slow enough to be slapped, it is not a legal snap.

Here is a play from Redding's NFHS Football Rules. "

Example 3-19 After the ready, all Team A players are set. As A53 snaps the ball, B72 reaches in and knocks the ball away. RULING: The umpire must decide whether the snap was illegal or B72 encroached.

It is highly unlikely the preceding example could occur without a foul. In practicality, for a defensive player to knock the ball away, either the snapper would have to hesitate after lifting the ball making the snap illegal and thus allowing the opponent enough time to touch the ball, or the Team B player would have to put his hand into the neutral zone before the snap."


psu I also posted this.

That is not just my interpretation. I also have talked with officials that work games every Friday and some that have even done State Finals, that do not agree with you.

Actually what he says is the umpire must decide whether or not there has been an infraction.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. While it's highly unlikely, it could happen and George leaves that door open.

The one thing for sure is, the officials, not some loud mouthed narcissistic assistant coach gets to make that determination.

Really?



either the snapper would have to hesitate after lifting the ball making the snap illegal



Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.

Rogers Redding doesn't write the Redding guide.

2011 Redding Study Guide to NFHS Football Rules
A 200 page study guide authored by George Demetriou, and originally created by Rogers Redding to break down and review the National Federation of High School



Fair enough, but Ol' George knows his business almost as good as Rut does.
:rolleyes:

And it is not an NF official guide. It means almost nothing in interpretations of any kind.

Peace

Sure it does. It's good enough for my crew and that's all that really matters when we're working.

It's the best publication of its kind out there, IMO.

Never used it and probably never will. If we need an interpretation we call the people in our state. We have 3 state clinicians on my crew and they can easily get an answer if need be. As I said, I cannot go to people and say, "In the Roger Redding book......it says."

Peace

Who would ever tell a coach, "In the Redding Guide...."? I would tell the coach, "this is how it is" and, guess what, that day it would be exactly that way.

If you're shunning this book because it's unofficial, that's a shame. It is the best teaching guide I've ever seen and my crew uses it for a variety of things, including putting together our weekly crew quiz. I use it when preparing for association meetings, as well.

It's a great tool ... but it's just a tool - it's not gospel and should not be used that way (as BJ seems to want to).

I am not talking about what I would tell a coach. I am saying that the book is not what I would rely on for clarification as we have people do to that for us. I would never tell an assignor that, an evaluator that or someone from the state office based on that book. Only the interpretations we get from our state matters and the book might be a good learning tool, not something I can hang my hat on as the final say. And certainly not something people around here use in meetings or presentations. Also our crew has some very knowledgeable people on them and we always find items to generate discussions for our crew for pre-games and other discussion items. I have never seen the use for that book.

Peace

+1

Perhaps we should meet in Beloit and write a new one.