Kick or Defer?
 

Kick or defer?

Dalton (Ga) vs. SE Whitfield, FED game. The player in white (Dalton) said he wanted to kick. The referee said "you are deferring then." The kid reiterated that they wanted to kick off and the white hat said "that means you are deferring."

Would you do that, or would you let them kick?

If he is going to come out to the coin toss looking like a punk then I would let him step on his ying yang.

We know what the coach wants before we get out there and we never let the kid choose something different (although I would be temoted to do so if they sent someone out looking like this)

I make it a point to ask the head coach in pregame what they want to do if they win the toss.

Failing that, I'd not argue with the player and have them defer anyways. If they want to kick the second half, they can elect to do so. I've seen the aftermath of a player electing to kick and the white hat going with it. Let's say the second half did not start off well.

General philosophy I have held for a long time is we do not tell them what they are going to do. We usually verify their request by making sure they understand what their choices are. If they insist on kicking the ball, there is only so much we can do. It is up to the coach to teach their kids what to do. But we will ask them a few times to make sure they understand the ramifications like say, "You want to kick and have your opponent choose in the second half right?" Often kids think that defer and kick mean the same thing.

Peace

My God, those kids have sportsmanship issues. And #38 obviously doesn't know which direction the bill of the hat is supposed to go. My nightmare is having this kid come home to pick up my daughter someday. :D

Too many choices given by the white hat. "You can receive, defer to the second half......(big pause here)." Matter of fact, this season I didn't have a single team not give me the choice immediately after saying, "You've won the toss." None of them said, "Kick."

You are fortunate. We had a kid this year try to kick the ball as well until our Referee got him straight.

Peace

Why are there two officials about 20 yards apart on the 50 yard line standing with their legs apart, hands behind the back, facing the white team's sideline? Is that normal for wherever this video is from?

it's almost like they are secret service protecting the coin toss.

Why on earth would a coach allow a player looking like that represent his team as the captain?

Judging by the start of that speech, they were expecting some problems between these teams. I think the R did just fine in this.

You guys are old. :D

Peace

A little back story here. #36 white played three years at SE Whitfield before "transferring" to Dalton, without changing addresses, according to the GHSA. He played four games for Dalton, but was turned in. Dalton had to forfeit those four games, two of them in region.

So Dalton's head coach found it necessary to trot out this now ineligible player to be the only one for the coin toss. So the officials expected trouble. The Sheriff quadrupled security bringing 24 officers to the game. I think R did a fine job as well.

Ah well, this could have gone quite differently. #36 is not eligible to be captain, since he is not a player (1-4-1). I'm not allowing him at the toss. Get me a captain, coach!

I'm not even looking at the video, but taking your words as an accurate representation, I wouldn't even have questioned the first answer. "We want to kick" is a perfectly valid and direct answer to the choice presented.

Of course it is. And it's an election that we officials almost never permit a captain to make. So?

Agreed. :)

What happened with the shaking of the hands. Did the red team refuse? Given the circumstances, I feel the Referee handled it well.

Yes, but they also do not know what that means sometimes. This is why many want to make sure they want to kick both halves.

Peace

Me: You've won the toss. (Pause; if nothing, then, what do you want to do)?

Them: Kick

Me: You mean you want to defer.

Them: No, kick.

Me: If you choose to kick, you'll be kicking both halves, your coach is going to mad at both of us, and you'll be running puke drills all week next week; you want to defer, right?

If they still say kick, I'm going to take that as a defer. There's no harm in doing that -- they still get to kick and have a choice for the second half.

Don't EVER accept kick as a viable option since it never is. Defer accomplishes the same thing, and if there is a weather issue (with them thinking defense on the field first), they can always choose end of the field.

As the Referee the few times the winner has chosen kick, My next sentence is: "so you want to kick both halves?" the next answer has always been no we will defer, or some reasonable facsimile.

Additionally, covered in the pre-game with the coach kicking wasn't the selection of the coach. in each case it was defer...

Interesting enough, I have been on crews where the white hat knew the coach wanted defer and let the kids kick twice anyway.

I disagree with that totally. Kicking the ball is a choice. If it was not a choice it should be removed from the rule. And believe it or not some coaches want to do this for some strange reason. I just think we should clarify so that this decision is not made in error. Usually at the varsity level this is not much of a problem, but lower levels kids have no idea (as well as coaches) what they are doing.

Peace

Ever have a kid look at you and say "We want to go that way"?

::Facepalm::

They know it means you'll honor their choice to kick. That's all you asked, that's all they're owed.

What do you do, draw them aside in a situation and say, "If you accept that penalty, it'll be your 2nd and 1 here, but if you decline it, it'll be your 1st and 10 a yard ahead. Some people don't realize it, but 2nd and 1 is what we call a `waste down', a down you'd probably do a lot better on than the 1 extra yard you'd gain by declining the penalty. I don't know if your coaches think that way, but if they do they'll think you're a moron for declining the penalty."?

I don't have any idea what sort of parallel you're trying to draw here... but you've obviously never made the mistake of allowing a kid to actually choose kick. You KNOW that's not what is wanted (and don't forget, we're not talking varsity here - at varsity, you've already asked the coaches in advance). Letting the kid make this mistake is bad form, and there is NOTHING good that can come from it. If you'd ever been there, you'd know that.

Not necessarily. I cannot remember ever asking a coach before hand what the choice was and even if I did, the captain is supposed to know what to say. Then again coaches can be at the coin flip in our state, so this is often not an issue. And it is the coach’s responsibility to coach up their captains as to what to do. The other team can hear them and if you just ignore their words we are doing the other team harm IMO.

Peace

Different pre-game procedures, I suppose. We go thorough the toss options with the coaches at every level.

I've never let a kid choose to kick, but I've twice had coaches elect to kick. Once on purpose and once mistakenly. I even tried to bail both of them out.

After the coach mistakenly stated he wanted to kick, I asked him, "Are you sure? That likely means you'll be kicking both halves." He insisted he wanted to kick, so I let him. Even that nearly got out of hand. We take the field in the second half and he want to know where to line up his kick return team. I tell him that the other team chose to receive the ball to start the second half and asked him which end he wants to kick from? He started to launch into a tirade about how he kicked off the first half and should be getting the ball...

I give him a stop sign after about 3 seconds and say, "Coach, before you really get started, do you remember these exact words coming out of my mouth when you told me you wanted to kick... 'Are you sure? That likely means you'll be kicking both halves'". I must have triggered something, because he simply turned around an walked away calling for his kickoff team. I'm glad I was able to cut him off and get him to realize HIS mistake before he could really get going. I could tell it was going to be a doosey that wasn't going to end well for anyone.

I've had one choose to kick, effectively. However, he defered the initial coin flip just in case. The weather was ridiculous and he wanted the other team to start deep (and he had a REALLY good kicker). When the weather didn't let up he chose to kick in the 2nd half.

Other than that I did make the mistake of allowing a team to choose to kick to start the game - I was rather new and it was a lower level game... I did try to talk the kid out of it, but didn't confer with coach when the kid insisted. My S-Storm was similar to what you describe, except I did not have the "remember what I said" to bail me out that you did.

I have a confession to make.

I don't even ask if they want to kick. I just ask if they would like to defer, receive, or defend a goal.

I figure that if for some bizarro reason they really do want to kick, they will know enough to ask me if that is one of their choices.

i ask the coaches during pregame conference. One time Coach A said he wanted to defer, and Coach B said he wanted to receive. When we went to middle of the field with the captains I realized I had forgot my coin in the locker room. So I gave them what they wanted. Team A you will defer, team B you will receive, Team A what goal will you defend? Everyone got what they wanted.

We could probably eliminate a fair number of coin tosses in this manner.

Exactly. Why should this decision be any different from any other decision a player makes during the game that could be wrong? Why is knowing how to make such a choice different from every other skill in the game? Why don't you point out the ballcarrier so a player won't make a mistake and tackle the wrong guy?

I always ask the coach in the pre-game what he wants to do. At the sideline, I confirm that with the speaking captain, as does the umpire with the opposing captain.

I never offer "kick" as an option. In fact, I usually tell the winning captain "You want to receive/defer, right?"

Nothing good can come from making a team kick off twice in a game, unless that's what the coach really wants to do.

As someone else said, kick is simply the wrong option. Defer will mean that you will, 99.9% of the time, kick the first half and you can *always* choose to kick the second half.

I don't get the option from the coaches. But just as I won't let the captain make an obvious mistake during penalty enforcement, I won't let the captain (or even coach) make a mistake at the *coin toss*.

It isn't really.

Would you let someone accept a penalty that would result in them losing a turnover without confirming? Do you ask if the defense wants to accept the false start penalty? Shouldn't you give them the chance to mess that up as well?

Heck, the rules actually make this accommodation, in that you automatically decline some penalties when accepting would result in losing a score, for example.

But you're making a judgment here that the choice of which team to have kick off is obvious like the choice of having an extra touchdown, and I'm saying it's not. That choice is there for a reason. Originally there was no such choice in the rules, and if you didn't get or want the choice of ends to defend, you would automatically kick off, because the rules makers thought it obvious that kicking off was better than having the other team kick off! It was only later that they saw that a team might prefer to receive, so they added that choice.

If they want to take out that choice, they can do so as the NFL did ~30 yrs. ago. I'll tell you that with very young players, if they allow kickoffs at all, that's about a 50-50 ball and the choice of kicking or receiving may favor kicking because a scramble for the ball on the other team's side of midfield is better than a scramble on your team's side. And I've written here that even in the pros within the past 25 yrs. I've seen the choice made to kick off taken, and that it proved to be the better choice.

I'll tell you what distorts judgments here: the use of the presumptuous term "receiving team" in the rules. There's no guarantee they actually will receive the ball! At a kickoff it's easy enough to ask which team a captain wants to kick off, but unfortunately I can't think of a better short term for "opponents of the kicking team" to use in the rules for free & scrimmage kicks, so until someone does, we're stuck with "team R". I'd like to call them "team L", because that's the letter after K (analogous to teams A & B), but there's no good word to go with that.

Yes, that is the correct mechanic in Georgia. The LJ and HL walk out to the hashes, release the captains to midfield, turn and then face their sideline at parade rest.

__

As has otherwise been noted, there's quite a bit of a backstory here between these two teams. I'm sure the Referee had other things on his mind and didn't want to be bothered with the nuances of Kick v. Defer. :)

I'll tell you my unwashed opinion:

Your knowledge of the history of the rules always interests me, but is really not important in how we administer the game today and sometimes gets in the way, IMO, of practical officiating.

The choice to defer gives the team *today* the chance to kick to begin the game as well as the choice to do whatever they want in the second half. In 15 years of being a white hat, I've *never* had the opponents of the team that deferred its choice say anything but "receive." Of course, maybe that's because after I signal the press box, I look at the other team and simply say, "Receive?"

No good can come from letting kids make mistakes that are easily preventable. It is similar to the kickoff. How many guys have ever let a kickoff take place without the correct number of players on the field for each team? We just don't do it. We tell them to count their players and give them the few sexconds it takes to do that before we let the RFP be blown. Common sense is one of the greatest attributes an official can have. Unfortunately, it is not something that can be taught

I'm confused. The NFL removed the option to kick about 30 years ago, yet the choice to kick has been taken in "the pros" (what, USFL?) within the past 25 years? These can't both be true.

PS - I remember a pro team choosing to kick exactly once - ever. Detroit about 3 years ago. It failed, the other team scored, and they were crucified on ESPN and everywhere else.

+1 ... and +1 more for the final sentence.

I do not think this has anything to do with common sense. The choice is there for a reason and if the kid cannot decide what they want to do properly, it is not our job to make the decision for them. There are also coaches that make bad choices all the time, are we going to make them call the right play because we are using common sense? The common sense we should use is to make sure that is what they want to do, not to make the decision for them. I had a team this week that ran a reverse on the 1 yard line and lost 4 yards to take an early lead. Coaches sometimes want silly things, like the Lions coach wanted to kick on an overtime decision and never got the ball back. If it is clear they want to defer we should give that to them that choice but if they insist on kicking the ball, they will learn the next time.

You are harming the other team as they can hear what choice you did not grant. We are accused of our integrity all the time; I do not think we should just ignore their request even if it is not what is ultimately wanted. I have no problem with asking or clarifying, I often have done the same on all choices, but not to just ignore what they say and do what I feel is best.

Peace

It was CFL.

And in these cases I meant the options after being scored on via TD or FG. NFL still has the options to start each half. What's interesting is that the NFL first took away the option to kick off after having a TD (and try attempt) scored against you, then a few years later made the scoring team's kickoff following a FG automatic too.

What's the real problem here? Apparently it's a misunderstanding that a team's captain or coach might have about how the choices are determined at each half -- as if the choice given to one team was not simply about the 1st half, but choosing the order of who would kick off for both halves in advance. This is something simple that doesn't even require practice -- that they can learn while sitting in a chair. When you present the choices, the clock isn't running, nobody's tired yet, they haven't taken shots in the head. If it's your job to straighten them out on that, then why wouldn't you confer with them about the consequences of 1 or 2 point tries when that comes up? Sure, it's something simple and you might prevent an error, but it's only one of a great many things like that in the game, and there doesn't seem to be any reason that you should be allowed, let alone expected, to give them advice on this one and not all those others, especially when this one is easier than the others.

Now that I've read the background, what would you do as WH in this sit?

WH: Visitors, you have won the toss.
Vis: We want to kick.
WH: You are deferring, then.
Vis: No, we want to kick.
WH: That means you're deferring.
Vis: Whatever.
WH: Home, you wish to receive?
Home: Since he wanted to kick and we hate him, we want to kick just out of spite!

No surprise there.

The "problem", if you want to call it that, is that when a team's choice is to defer, they know that they're going to be kicking off to start the first half. Therefore, they sometimes use the shortcut "We'll kick" instead of "We'll defer."

It's certainly not what they mean.

We are reading minds now?

No surprise where? What are you afraid that someone is going to yell at you and hurt your little feelings? That what it sounds like to me. ;)

Peace

Honestly, we might be here. I think it's pretty clear that in 999999 times out of 1000000 they really do mean defer. What's more, there is ZERO harm in doing what they MEAN here instead of what they say ... if they REALLY meant kick - they can still do so at the start of the 3rd quarter.

Then tell me why do they have the option in the rules? I do not think we can just arbitrarily set a rule totally aside because "we think" they know what they mean. That is why we/my crew ask them to clarify so it is clear what they want. The vast majority of teams say defer and they are taught properly to say defer. Rare that there is any other choice and they use the proper terminology.

It does not take long to get clarification or ask the coach ahead of time. But then when they make a choice we should not choose for them. And again the harm is the other teams now thinks you made a choice for them and put them at a clear disadvantage. Either way someone can or will be upset when they coach their kids the right way.

Peace

A says they want to kick. Referee decides that they want to defer. B then chooses to kick. Now A is mad because they wanted to kick but are now receiving.

It is one thing to make sure that the team understands that electing to kick means that they will probably kick to start both halves. It is a completely different thing to overrule the team's choice because you think you know what they actually want.

I guess I see this more in parallel with "strongly suggesting" someone take or decline a penalty ... "are you sure," for example. Making sure they understand what they are choosing.

Point taken.

You don't have to be Kreskin to know they mean "defer" if that's what the coach told you during the pre-game.

(Assuming you have the common sense to ask him.)

Somehow, never had a problem single problem with my procedure or way I handled it or my crew handled it. I can only think of one varsity game this ever was allowed to kick after we asked the player about 3 or 4 times "You really want to kick the ball?" Then the kid said, "Yes the coach wanted me to say kick the ball, we want to kick the ball." Funny, nothing bad happened. Imagine that. :eek:

Peace

I have no problem with that. I just want to be sure and the coach knows who he needs to be mad at or attend the darn coin flip which they can do in our state.

Peace