Scrimmage Kick (FG) exception
 

This was a first for me...

A lines up for a field goal. A1 knee on the ground in position to receive the snap and A2 in position to kick. The snapper mistakenly snaps the ball to the kicker who essentially "sets" (volleyball) the ball to the holder who catches the ball with his knee still on the ground and then rises and rolls right and throws a pass to A8 who catches the ball in the end zone and is then tackled by the face mask.

After you wipe the "what just happened" look off your face, sort it out...I'll chime in later with what I did.

Recovering a muffed snap with the knee still on the ground is legal and the ball is live (4-2-2 EXCEPTION 1). The holder may rise and throw a pass, so the score is good. Dead ball FM foul can be enforced on the try or the kickoff.

Do you truly believe it was a mistake?

Sounds like it was a play on purpose.

Peace

Live ball llegal batting on A2 (9-7-3). Dead ball PF facemask on B (9-4-3 h). Enforce both. Same down. Same distance.

Good thinking: I couldn't tell from the OP whether the kicker's contact with the ball was intentional, but if it was that would be an illegal bat.

If you're going to enforce both, you'll end up at the same spot only if the illegal batting takes the ball outside the 30YL. Otherwise, the FM penalty will be enforced half the distance.

I don't believe this is a muff... I believe kicker's actions constitute an illegal bat ... or if he caught and threw it (judgement being on how long it was in K's hands), it's a pass ... to a receiver who is already on the ground. Play over.

Not seeing the play, this could be a forward pass from the kicker to the holder

It's not a dead ball personal foul based on the OP. The tackle was by the facemask so it's a live ball foul. The penalties cancel and we replay the try.

The ball becomes dead on the score. Without seeing the play it's impossible to determine whether the foul was live ball/dead ball. I was envisioning a take down by the facemask after clear possession had been established. If the facemask occurred while he was still gaining possession, I'd agree with the live ball foul.

I agree with Mike. We either have offsetting fouls or one deadball PF.

If you are ruling illegal bat, shouldn't you have one live ball foul and one dead ball foul, enforcing them in order of occurrence?

I don't believe we can combine a live ball foul and a dead ball foul for a double foul. 10.2.5

A lines up for a field goal. A1 knee on the ground in position to receive the snap and A2 in position to kick. The snapper mistakenly

snaps the ball to the kicker who essentially "sets" (volleyball) the ball to the holder
9-7-ART. 3 . . . Any pass in flight may be batted in any direction, by an eligible
receiver unless it is a backward pass batted forward by the passing team.

who catches the ball with his knee still on the ground and then rises and rolls right and throws a pass to A8 who catches the ball in the and zone AND is then tackled by the face mask.

Dead ball foul 9-4-ART. 3 . . . No player or nonplayer shall:h. Grasp an opponent’s face mask, any edge of a helmet opening or the chin
strap.

Mike is right, one live one dead enforce in the order of occurrence

Why is the play over? He's still placing the ball for an ostensible kick.

He's placing a dead ball if it's a pass from the kicker.

Wow, that would have to be a pretty lucky bat to end up in the holder's hand. Of course you would have to be there, but it sounds like a completed pass to the holder who is on the ground. End of play.

It can't be a completed pass if the player receiving the snap never possessed the ball. Agree that it's HTBT.

Where does it say the place kick holder ceases to be a place kick holder if he obtains possession by unusual means? If he was so positioned at the snap, and while he's placing the ball there's someone in position ostensibly to kick it, the ball remains live.

Didn't we discuss here a year ago or so a situation in which a place kick is blocked and the holder obtains possession and tees the ball up again while the kicker has reloaded?

issue #1
Well the kicker started forward like he would and was completely caught off guard by the snap in his face. He batted the ball to the holder. After seeing this my flag was late and I threw it for an illegal bat, (backward pass batted forward by the team in possession)

Issue #2
A pass is made by a player in possession right? So its not a pass, the snap was never possessed by anyone so the holder recovered the snap with a knee on the ground as a holder, ball remained live.

Issue #3
The ball became dead when the ball was caught in the end zone. THe defender had gone up to try to bat the pass and came down with a hand full of facemask and brought the ball carrier down with it. It was bang bang, but definately after the pass completion.

End result. It was 4th and goal at the 5. Illegal bat-live ball foul to the 20, dead ball foul to the 10 and Replay 4th down. I will say 10 years ago that play would have blown up on me, but having learned to slow down and talk through the play we nailed it. The only problem we encountered, A's coach had "never heard of illegal batting and he's been coaching for 37 years."

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

The volleyball pass is a forward pass. I'd not flag it the offside pass subject to penalty and permit the score and enforce the facemask.

Good job, I'm in my second year and there is no way I would not have gotten that right on the fly in the moment.