PI mechanics question, 4-man crew
 

4-man crew.

For full disclosure, I coach football and have a question because I really don't know how this works.

Does the Umpire in a 4-man crew have pass interference responsibilities on the receivers closest to the sidelines on vertical routes? We had a play where the HL on our sideline was watching the other team's receiver and our corner on a vertical route about 15-20 yards downfield. The receiver had to come back to the ball a little and there was some contact between the two of them, but the HL did not throw his flag. (He did start to reach for it though) The U turned from just behind the LOS and threw the flag for the PI down the field and toward the sideline a considerable distance. We disagreed with the call and I told the HL that if he was going to call the penalty, we may not like it but at least we can buy it since he is right on top of the play, but it looked bad for his U to penalize something from that far away that he could only have seen the very end of.

The U told us that once the ball crosses the LOS he is supposed to turn and watch things downfield, so that is why he threw the flag.

Maybe I am way off here, so if I am, let me know. I just thought it looked like the U stepped on the HL's toes when the play was right in front of the HL. I also realize that if there was a BJ on the field he would have helped the HL, so there are limitations to 4-man mechanics in football.

Everywhere I've worked, it's always been taboo for the Umpire to throw a PI flag. We'll turn with the pass to help rule on incomplets on trapped balls and if a ball was touched but should not be throwing PI.

As you said, there are some serious coverage gaps with a four man crew and there could be extenuating circumstances where the umpire might throw on PI but in your case, it doesn't sound like that it fits.

I do not see why the U cannot call those things in a 4 man system. They rule on passes in a 5 man system. The BJ is not there with 4 man and part of my understanding is that U/BJ is always to rule on deep plays and situation in the passing game. Of course they are not going to see all these plays, but I do not see why they cannot rule on these plays if you are going to use 4 officials in a game.

Peace

5-man the U should stay away from this. With a 4-man crew he probably needs to help. Also realize distance is not always a factor that should prevent an official from throwing a flag. Angle is often much more important than distance. In a play like this the U has a completely different angle than the H and may have had a better view.

In 4 man, a lot of the B responsibilities can be and should be covered by U, depending on how deep they occur. I have no problem with U calling a PI that he is sure of, and would not consider this poaching a call.

Agree. With more and more JV teams running spread offenses, trying to watch all 4 or 5 receivers with 2 pairs of eyes is impossible. If you want a DPI on an underneath route, either the U gets it or you need a fifth official. :)

I would think it would be fine for the U to make this call. As the Linesman on both a 4 and 5 person crew, there are many PI calls that from my angle I cannot see, and I really have a great Back Judge who helps with a bunch of those calls, in the 4 man games, that would be the U.

Lots of times, I might be shielded from contact if it occurs on the other side of the receiver, so that's something the U in 4 man and the BJ in 5 man can clearly see being in the middle of the field. I would never be upset if a flag came from one of my partners, they are there to see the different angles, just because I might be the closest does not mean I can see everything.

I'm with the rest who think it's perfectly fine in 4-man for the U to help out here.

FWIW, this wasn't an underneath route. The play happened about 4-5 yards from the sideline and about 15 yards from the LOS and the corner was playing behind the receiver. I think the U was straightlined pretty badly, which is one reason why I thought he shouldn't have thrown the flag. The wing guy was moving toward the play and had what looked like a great angle from the side. (The same angle I had since I was standing right behind him)

I could see throwing the flag if it's a route somewhere in the middle of the field. (Drag, dig, maybe a post) It just appeared that he poached the wing official's call based on where they both were and where the play occured. Thanks for the replies.

Under that scenario, I'd be upset with the flag if I were the L/LJ. That said, I agree with the others that the U should not shy away from PI calls when they have the best line of sight in a four man.

Let's face it...you didn't like the call and nothing we say is going to change that.

There's nothing wrong with the U making this call. You asked, you don't like the answer. So be it.

I didn't really tell the rest of the story at first because it wasn't relevant, but after this play happened, our tight end got held by a linebacker twice when releasing for a seam route down the middle of the field.

No, I didn't agree with it, but I let it go until our guy was held twice right in front of the U and neither were called.

The "rest of the story" still isn't relevant, so why bring it up?

But since you did....prior to a pass being thrown, the U isn't going to be looking at TE/LB action, the U's primary responsibility is to watch the blocking action of the interior linemen (Center, Guards, and Tackle on the R's side).

In a 4-man system, the TE/LB action isn't going to be in the primary focus of anyone initially, especially if there are receivers outside of the tight end. Them's the breaks of only having 4 sets of eyes to watch 22 players.

So you decided to whine/complain to the officials at the game and to us because the U threw a flag in an area that is his responsibility, but then didn't throw a flag for something that's not part of his area of responsibility. Stay classy, coach.

Hire more officials then! Tough for an Umpire to see this as this is not their initial key in most mechanics sets. With fewer officials on the field there are more holes in coverages to see a lot of things. Five officials is tough enough, four in today's game is much more of a problem.

Peace

At least two people who have replied said it was not his area.

Why use that crutch? We would never actually say this in baseball or basketball when working 2-man, so why can it be used in football?

They said it wasn't in his AREA (geographically, so to speak), but no one has said it was not part of his responsibility, and in fact you've been told many many times that it is.

A fair point in a way... but most of us are of the opinion that with the game's evolution, games at the level that you describe NEED 5 officials, not 4. So the more apt analogy would be comparing to working a baseball or softball game with ONE umpire... i.e. not enough. Coach - she left early from first!!!. Umpire - coach, if you guys want that watched closely, you should pay for a 2nd umpire.

And at least 4 posters (not counting me) have said that it would be part of his area in a 4-man mechanic.

A couple of points here.
1) It's not a crutch, it's the truth. More officials = better coverage. Why do you think NCAA and NFL (and some FED) use seven officials for football?

Heck, in the preseason this year the NFL experimented with adding an 8th official to improve coverage, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they added an 8th official permanently in a few years.

Around here, almost all non-varsity games use three officials. The Junior High game I'll be working this afternoon has 2 officials. Do you honestly think we'll be able to make any holding calls on the interior linemen today when we have one official on each sideline?

2) Do a search of the basketball forum and you'll find plenty of threads that talk about the advantages of having three whistle mechanics as opposed to two whistle mechanics. You'll find the same thing in the baseball and softball forums.

I have this happen on an non-trivial amount of single-umpire baseball games that I've worked:
"What do you mean he's out trying to steal second? He slid around the tag!"
"Coach, from my angle, he was out. If you want to have someone with a better angle making the call, pay for a second umpire"
"..... (walks back to the dugout)"

I know all of this. I know it makes for a better game to have three officials in baseball or basketball, but I would never tell that to a coach during a game. I know what you guys are saying. There are coverage gaps and compromises in 2-man baseball and basketball just like in 4-man football, but none of us should actually tell a coach to "hire another official", since 99.9% of the time the coach has nothing to do with how many officials are on the field.

The original play in question just felt a lot like a Lead in basketball calling a hand check on the point guard right in front of the Trail at the top of the key. I realize that I don't know all there is to know about football mechanics, but I have done enough basketball and baseball to know when it appears that someone is reaching for a call that they should probably let a partner take.

From everyone's responses, it sounded like the U can throw a PI flag, which is fine. On this particular play though, it just appeared to me that he didn't see the whole play, was straightlined, and guessed a little. It's over though.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you guys. I understand your side, I just disagreed with the call and still do, but there's nothing that can be done about it now. Thanks again for the replies.

You have obviously not been around very long if you have never heard that used in other sports. It has been used in baseball when coaches complain when the 1st base umpire calls a swing on a left handed batter or when a play at first has two umpires away from first base to rule on a tag play on a bad throw. I had a coach complain in basketball that we should have had 3 officials in a summer tournament with several All-Americans playing in the championship game. And yes in my area we use 3 officials for almost every varsity game and wonder why they go 2 person in some conferences with some of the best players is silly. I have also never worked a varsity game on purpose with 4 officials in my entire 15 plus years’ career. And when I started teams ran mostly option or at best a pro style offense where there were only about two wide outs at most. That situation needed 5 officials with the speed of the players and the passing that took place at that time.

I always have a problem when people expect the game called but are not willing to pay or hire the standard at the other levels. I work 7 in college and I cannot imagine working that game with less than that number. The game is too fast and now you want expect 4 to cover things that is hard for 5 officials in the best of situations.

Peace

I do not recall this being said to a coach. That being said if a coach was being unreasonable I have and will say this to a coach. I know I have worked 1 man games in basketball and baseball and had coaches cannot believe I missed a play while having to do the job of multiple officials on the field/court.

Well you asked can this be called in that situation? I can be called in that situation as you have no BJ and the wings often do not see things in the middle of the field very well. Even in 5 man it is about angles and calling what you see. Even in basketball depending on the situation there would be a call from the Lead at the top of the key by the lead. Heck the lead has to call out of bounds calls on their line all the way up the court, and they are almost never just focused on those plays.

Well I was not there and neither was anyone else here. I have no idea what the umpire should have seen or should not have called. I just know that in 4 man on a football field, the U has more responsibilities in the middle of the field that is needed because you have less than 5. In a 5 man system they would not be likely to call this as they deal with mostly line plays, but again they can call that too under the right situation too. Again the most ideal situation is 7 man and we can focus on one or two players in those systems so it makes it easier to limit your focus.

Well why did you come here anyway without video or even bring up the issue. You make it sound like we saw the call. We are just telling you what the U/BJ can or cannot do.

Peace