PI mechanics question, 4-man crew

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Let's face it...you didn't like the call and nothing we say is going to change that.

There's nothing wrong with the U making this call. You asked, you don't like the answer. So be it.

I didn't really tell the rest of the story at first because it wasn't relevant, but after this play happened, our tight end got held by a linebacker twice when releasing for a seam route down the middle of the field.

No, I didn't agree with it, but I let it go until our guy was held twice right in front of the U and neither were called.

[jTheUmp]

The "rest of the story" still isn't relevant, so why bring it up?

But since you did....prior to a pass being thrown, the U isn't going to be looking at TE/LB action, the U's primary responsibility is to watch the blocking action of the interior linemen (Center, Guards, and Tackle on the R's side).

In a 4-man system, the TE/LB action isn't going to be in the primary focus of anyone initially, especially if there are receivers outside of the tight end. Them's the breaks of only having 4 sets of eyes to watch 22 players.

So you decided to whine/complain to the officials at the game and to us because the U threw a flag in an area that is his responsibility, but then didn't throw a flag for something that's not part of his area of responsibility. Stay classy, coach.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I didn't really tell the rest of the story at first because it wasn't relevant, but after this play happened, our tight end got held by a linebacker twice when releasing for a seam route down the middle of the field.

No, I didn't agree with it, but I let it go until our guy was held twice right in front of the U and neither were called.

Hire more officials then! Tough for an Umpire to see this as this is not their initial key in most mechanics sets. With fewer officials on the field there are more holes in coverages to see a lot of things. Five officials is tough enough, four in today's game is much more of a problem.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

.
So you decided to whine/complain to the officials at the game and to us because the U threw a flag in an area that is his responsibility, but then didn't throw a flag for something that's not part of his area of responsibility. Stay classy, coach.

At least two people who have replied said it was not his area.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Hire more officials then! Tough for an Umpire to see this as this is not their initial key in most mechanics sets. With fewer officials on the field there are more holes in coverages to see a lot of things. Five officials is tough enough, four in today's game is much more of a problem.

Peace

Why use that crutch? We would never actually say this in baseball or basketball when working 2-man, so why can it be used in football?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by zm1283

At least two people who have replied said it was not his area.

They said it wasn't in his AREA (geographically, so to speak), but no one has said it was not part of his responsibility, and in fact you've been told many many times that it is.

Why use that crutch? We would never actually say this in baseball or basketball when working 2-man, so why can it be used in football?

A fair point in a way... but most of us are of the opinion that with the game's evolution, games at the level that you describe NEED 5 officials, not 4. So the more apt analogy would be comparing to working a baseball or softball game with ONE umpire... i.e. not enough. Coach - she left early from first!!!. Umpire - coach, if you guys want that watched closely, you should pay for a 2nd umpire.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by zm1283

At least two people who have replied said it was not his area.

And at least 4 posters (not counting me) have said that it would be part of his area in a 4-man mechanic.

Why use that crutch? We would never actually say this in baseball or basketball when working 2-man, so why can it be used in football?

A couple of points here.
1) It's not a crutch, it's the truth. More officials = better coverage. Why do you think NCAA and NFL (and some FED) use seven officials for football?

Heck, in the preseason this year the NFL experimented with adding an 8th official to improve coverage, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they added an 8th official permanently in a few years.

Around here, almost all non-varsity games use three officials. The Junior High game I'll be working this afternoon has 2 officials. Do you honestly think we'll be able to make any holding calls on the interior linemen today when we have one official on each sideline?

2) Do a search of the basketball forum and you'll find plenty of threads that talk about the advantages of having three whistle mechanics as opposed to two whistle mechanics. You'll find the same thing in the baseball and softball forums.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

A fair point in a way... but most of us are of the opinion that with the game's evolution, games at the level that you describe NEED 5 officials, not 4. So the more apt analogy would be comparing to working a baseball or softball game with ONE umpire... i.e. not enough. Coach - she left early from first!!!. Umpire - coach, if you guys want that watched closely, you should pay for a 2nd umpire.

I have this happen on an non-trivial amount of single-umpire baseball games that I've worked:
"What do you mean he's out trying to steal second? He slid around the tag!"
"Coach, from my angle, he was out. If you want to have someone with a better angle making the call, pay for a second umpire"
"..... (walks back to the dugout)"

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

And at least 4 posters (not counting me) have said that it would be part of his area in a 4-man mechanic.


A couple of points here.
1) It's not a crutch, it's the truth. More officials = better coverage. Why do you think NCAA and NFL (and some FED) use seven officials for football?

Heck, in the preseason this year the NFL experimented with adding an 8th official to improve coverage, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they added an 8th official permanently in a few years.

Around here, almost all non-varsity games use three officials. The Junior High game I'll be working this afternoon has 2 officials. Do you honestly think we'll be able to make any holding calls on the interior linemen today when we have one official on each sideline?

2) Do a search of the basketball forum and you'll find plenty of threads that talk about the advantages of having three whistle mechanics as opposed to two whistle mechanics. You'll find the same thing in the baseball and softball forums.



I have this happen on an non-trivial amount of single-umpire baseball games that I've worked:
"What do you mean he's out trying to steal second? He slid around the tag!"
"Coach, from my angle, he was out. If you want to have someone with a better angle making the call, pay for a second umpire"
"..... (walks back to the dugout)"

I know all of this. I know it makes for a better game to have three officials in baseball or basketball, but I would never tell that to a coach during a game. I know what you guys are saying. There are coverage gaps and compromises in 2-man baseball and basketball just like in 4-man football, but none of us should actually tell a coach to "hire another official", since 99.9% of the time the coach has nothing to do with how many officials are on the field.

The original play in question just felt a lot like a Lead in basketball calling a hand check on the point guard right in front of the Trail at the top of the key. I realize that I don't know all there is to know about football mechanics, but I have done enough basketball and baseball to know when it appears that someone is reaching for a call that they should probably let a partner take.

From everyone's responses, it sounded like the U can throw a PI flag, which is fine. On this particular play though, it just appeared to me that he didn't see the whole play, was straightlined, and guessed a little. It's over though.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you guys. I understand your side, I just disagreed with the call and still do, but there's nothing that can be done about it now. Thanks again for the replies.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I know all of this. I know it makes for a better game to have three officials in baseball or basketball, but I would never tell that to a coach during a game. I know what you guys are saying. There are coverage gaps and compromises in 2-man baseball and basketball just like in 4-man football, but none of us should actually tell a coach to "hire another official", since 99.9% of the time the coach has nothing to do with how many officials are on the field.

I do not recall this being said to a coach. That being said if a coach was being unreasonable I have and will say this to a coach. I know I have worked 1 man games in basketball and baseball and had coaches cannot believe I missed a play while having to do the job of multiple officials on the field/court.

Originally Posted by zm1283

The original play in question just felt a lot like a Lead in basketball calling a hand check on the point guard right in front of the Trail at the top of the key. I realize that I don't know all there is to know about football mechanics, but I have done enough basketball and baseball to know when it appears that someone is reaching for a call that they should probably let a partner take.

Well you asked can this be called in that situation? I can be called in that situation as you have no BJ and the wings often do not see things in the middle of the field very well. Even in 5 man it is about angles and calling what you see. Even in basketball depending on the situation there would be a call from the Lead at the top of the key by the lead. Heck the lead has to call out of bounds calls on their line all the way up the court, and they are almost never just focused on those plays.

Originally Posted by zm1283

From everyone's responses, it sounded like the U can throw a PI flag, which is fine. On this particular play though, it just appeared to me that he didn't see the whole play, was straightlined, and guessed a little. It's over though.

Well I was not there and neither was anyone else here. I have no idea what the umpire should have seen or should not have called. I just know that in 4 man on a football field, the U has more responsibilities in the middle of the field that is needed because you have less than 5. In a 5 man system they would not be likely to call this as they deal with mostly line plays, but again they can call that too under the right situation too. Again the most ideal situation is 7 man and we can focus on one or two players in those systems so it makes it easier to limit your focus.

Originally Posted by zm1283

I'm not going to keep arguing with you guys. I understand your side, I just disagreed with the call and still do, but there's nothing that can be done about it now. Thanks again for the replies.

Well why did you come here anyway without video or even bring up the issue. You make it sound like we saw the call. We are just telling you what the U/BJ can or cannot do.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Why use that crutch? We would never actually say this in baseball or basketball when working 2-man, so why can it be used in football?

You have obviously not been around very long if you have never heard that used in other sports. It has been used in baseball when coaches complain when the 1st base umpire calls a swing on a left handed batter or when a play at first has two umpires away from first base to rule on a tag play on a bad throw. I had a coach complain in basketball that we should have had 3 officials in a summer tournament with several All-Americans playing in the championship game. And yes in my area we use 3 officials for almost every varsity game and wonder why they go 2 person in some conferences with some of the best players is silly. I have also never worked a varsity game on purpose with 4 officials in my entire 15 plus years’ career. And when I started teams ran mostly option or at best a pro style offense where there were only about two wide outs at most. That situation needed 5 officials with the speed of the players and the passing that took place at that time.

I always have a problem when people expect the game called but are not willing to pay or hire the standard at the other levels. I work 7 in college and I cannot imagine working that game with less than that number. The game is too fast and now you want expect 4 to cover things that is hard for 5 officials in the best of situations.

Peace