Enforcement on the punt return that never was

[InsideTheStripe]

NFL Videos: The punt return that never was

Can anyone explain the enforcement of the hold called on Corey Graham during the punt return in the video?

Assuming one is willing to concede that he grabbed Bush inside the shirt/pads and gave him a tug that took him off stride and effected his ability to cover the punt (which I am), I'm scratching my head at the enforcement spot and the placement of the ball to start the series. The hold took place at around the 37 and the ball was caught at the 11. The flag landed at the 18 or so and the enforcement seemed to be half the distance from there?!?

I don't have the 2011 NFL rule book, but something doesn't seem to add up.

[APG]

If you listen to the announcement, the penalty was announced as a hold that occurred during the return. In that case, it would have been a spot enforcement using the 3 and 1 philosophy. Looking back at the play-by-play on NFL.com, the "hold" occurred at the 20 and the new series started on the 10.

Now if they were actually calling the hold for the contact which you refer to, it would have been a post-possession foul and penalized half the distance to the goal from the end of the kick, first and 10 at the 5.5.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If you listen to the announcement, the penalty was announced as a hold that occurred during the return. In that case, it would have been a spot enforcement using the 3 and 1 philosophy. Looking back at the play-by-play on NFL.com, the "hold" occurred at the 20 and the new series started on the 10.

Now if they were actually calling the hold for the contact which you refer to, it would have been a post-possession foul and penalized half the distance to the goal from the end of the kick, first and 10 at the 5.5.

I'm just confused by the whole thing. I heard the announcement, but the flag was in the air before Knox caught the ball. It COULDN'T have been thrown for a foul that occurred "during the return". The only player engaged with an opponent around the 20 yard line was Zack Bowman who was outside the opposite hash. It seems unlikely that the side judge would flag that (especially before it occurred).

[Forksref]

Even at the HS level I would have a problem throwing a flag on a foul that was not at the point of attack.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Even at the HS level I would have a problem throwing a flag on a foul that was not at the point of attack.

Except that it was on a gunner -- how do you know if he's going to be able to make a play a few seconds later?

I have no idea how it was enforced, but I assumed it was (in my vernacular) a PSK foul. I guess it wasn't enforced that way based on this thread.

[RadioBlue]

Video: Hester fakes punt return while Knox fields it 30 yards away - Shutdown Corner - NFLBlog - Yahoo! Sports
If you look just under and to the left of the FoxBox the moment the kick occurs, you can see the hold. It was clearly not during the return. Also, the flag gets nowhere near the foul and is thrown by the official at the GL pylon.

The hold was there, but I'm having some difficulty with how it was enforced, as well.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Except that it was on a gunner -- how do you know if he's going to be able to make a play a few seconds later?

I have no idea how it was enforced, but I assumed it was (in my vernacular) a PSK foul. I guess it wasn't enforced that way based on this thread.

Hold the flag and throw if it later affects the play.

If the left gunner is held, but the punt goes down the middle and is tackled right away, how does the hold affect the play?

I (as the Referee) picked up this flag earlier this year: QB is sacked for a 6-yard loss. Just before I killed the play, my U had a flag. Turns out it is for a hold 1 yard behind the line. How exactly does this hold matter when the QB was sacked by someone else 5 yards behind the hold? A: it doesn't!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Video: Hester fakes punt return while Knox fields it 30 yards away - Shutdown Corner - NFLBlog - Yahoo! Sports
If you look just under and to the left of the FoxBox the moment the kick occurs, you can see the hold. It was clearly not during the return. Also, the flag gets nowhere near the foul and is thrown by the official at the GL pylon.

The hold was there, but I'm having some difficulty with how it was enforced, as well.

I agree with everything here.

The foul was clearly a hold while the ball was in flight.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Even at the HS level I would have a problem throwing a flag on a foul that was not at the point of attack.

While the punt is in the air, you have to assume that ANY hold is going to affect the run.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Hold the flag and throw if it later affects the play.

If the left gunner is held, but the punt goes down the middle and is tackled right away, how does the hold affect the play?

I (as the Referee) picked up this flag earlier this year: QB is sacked for a 6-yard loss. Just before I killed the play, my U had a flag. Turns out it is for a hold 1 yard behind the line. How exactly does this hold matter when the QB was sacked by someone else 5 yards behind the hold? A: it doesn't!

How do you know that the left gunner isn't going to make a play somewhere in the middle of the field but was held/taken down completely out of the play?

What if there was a defensive penalty downfield? Then do you magically enforce the hold at the line in order to offset the penalties or do you pick up the foul on A and give B a benefit it doesn't have?

Besides, the defense has a choice, doesn't it? It can decline the penalty if it wants.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Hold the flag and throw if it later affects the play.

If the left gunner is held, but the punt goes down the middle and is tackled right away, how does the hold affect the play?

I (as the Referee) picked up this flag earlier this year: QB is sacked for a 6-yard loss. Just before I killed the play, my U had a flag. Turns out it is for a hold 1 yard behind the line. How exactly does this hold matter when the QB was sacked by someone else 5 yards behind the hold? A: it doesn't!

I (somewhat) understand the waive off you describe - although this is likely more of a halftime discussion with U. But you can't hold a flag and then throw it later when you discover it mattered, especially on a kicking play. I fully get not penalizing for items away from the play. However, on a kick, EVERYTHING interacts with everything else, you have to assume it matters. (Also, what if some other official has a flag on the other team that you don't notice. NOW you're going to drop the flag for the foul you saw? That's just asking for trouble).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I (somewhat) understand the waive off you describe - although this is likely more of a halftime discussion with U. But you can't hold a flag and then throw it later when you discover it mattered,

I was the CC on a city final and had this: sweep to the right side, with the ball carrier out of the pocket. The left guard was still dealing with a defensive player (call him B30), and totally held him. There were 4-5 other defensive players chasing the ball carrier, so this player that was held was not going to contribute to A getting tackled. The LG is still legally blocking B30 with B30 having a tough time getting up again.

Sure enough, A reverses field and is now back towards player B30. Once B30's disadvantageous position mattered, the flag is thrown by myself.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

especially on a kicking play. I fully get not penalizing for items away from the play. However, on a kick, EVERYTHING interacts with everything else, you have to assume it matters. (Also, what if some other official has a flag on the other team that you don't notice. NOW you're going to drop the flag for the foul you saw? That's just asking for trouble).

I disagree with that everything on a kicking play interacts with everything else. Having said that, recall that I'm Canajun and our field is 50% bigger than yours. While my college conference does pay special attention to gunners, there is much more room for players to be "away from the play".

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the other flag, but we don't worry about throwing a flag to offset a different foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

How do you know that the left gunner isn't going to make a play somewhere in the middle of the field but was held/taken down completely out of the play?

What if there was a defensive penalty downfield? Then do you magically enforce the hold at the line in order to offset the penalties or do you pick up the foul on A and give B a benefit it doesn't have?

Besides, the defense has a choice, doesn't it? It can decline the penalty if it wants.

We don't throw a flag to offset penalties; magically or otherwise.

Each foul is judged on it's own merits on the play. A left gunner being held with the punt to the middle could very likely be flagged.

We're also instructed to prevent fouls (this is a huge thing) so when working the wing on a kicking play, I'm yelling at B players to "only blocking, no holding". If B is listening to the officials that are using their voices, they very well could get away with a minor hold before resuming blocking. I easily prevent multiple fouls per game using this method, whether it be preventing offside fouls, an occasional hold, or a late hit.

I had the first flag of the game in my college game this past Saturday. < 5 minutes into the game, I warned a WR about holding a DB to allow for more YAC on a short pass. A was tackled for a very short gain, so the hold downfield didn't matter. I even explained to him why it's a hold when he was coming off the field. Sure enough, next offensive series, A's pass to the flats with YAC for a long gain and the same hold was there. Flagged. That's exactly how we do it up here: no effect, no flag, but still warn with our voices. Continued illegal action get flagged.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

We don't throw a flag to offset penalties; magically or otherwise.

Sorry, but I don't believe in throwing a flag later in a play when a player who was held "becomes relevant." In your play with the sweep, a hold that happened 5-6 seconds ago wasn't relevant when it originally happened and I'd assume that after that much time the B player is probably back in the play. I still wouldn't have thrown the flag. The only time I'll throw a flag later is when I need additional information from another official, such as IG.

And we will throw it to make sure that a penalty on B is offset. But it still has to be a foul. The minor hold on the left end when the play goes the other way isn't going to be flagged, cause it's not a foul -- it's not at the point of attack.

But a lineman holding when the QB gets sacked is still a foul -- it's just one you've decided after the fact "didn't matter after all" and should get picked up. My crew isn't picking that up for 2 reasons -- (1) The defense can decline it if they wish and (2) if there is another foul on the defense, it's penalizing the defense for picking up a flag for a legitimate foul on the offense.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I agree with everything here.

The foul was clearly a hold while the ball was in flight.

I've watched this on both angles. If you look at the Fox cam from the "punter's view", you can see he gets tugged quite well at about the :06 mark in the video. I've heard others say it was probably IC/hands to the face on that first one at that point and that the hold occurred as the camera switched shots to the airborne punt about 3 seconds off the snap while they were all releasing downfield.