Punt blocked, can I punt again?
 

Punter gets the kick blocked behind the neutral zone and the ball comes right back to him, can he punt it again? Can you refer me to a rule one way or the other? Thanks!

Is refumpire aware there are multiple rulesets out there? And that one can usually look up the easy ones like this one?

Sorry if you consider this being difficult... but with that moniker, I'm assuming you work football. If you can't already answer this before stepping on the field the very first time ... you shouldn't be stepping on the field and shame on your association.

No offense.

Legal. The rules list prohibited actions not permitted actions, so since this isn't prohibited, you won't find a rule permitting it.

I can point you to the rule that states K may catch, recover, and advance a scrimmage kick recovered behind the neutral zone (6-2-3), and if they may advance it then clearly they may also pass or kick it.

Why don't you give him the rules sets that you are aware of and go from there? Usually someone asking these questions is not familiar with the fact there is a difference if they are not an official. And if an official is asking this question they are likely asking HS/NF rules. It is really not that hard, just give a summary and let him/her tell you if they want further information. And you must not deal with a lot of newer officials as all of them are not dealing with an association and all of them are not rules expects if they have never worked a game. But oh well, Lord forgive those that do not have your experience right? ;)

Peace

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal, because kicking the ball is simply another method of trying to advance the ball.

I am more than willing to help a newbie along when something slightly unexpected happens, or a play has a twist to it... or they have looked it up and found applicable rules but have a question about how to apply them.

Something like this one? I'm worried if someone is on the field and can't already answer this one... someone ELSE is not doing their job. Further, as an experienced official yourself, you know that you learn more by looking up answers than just having them given to you. Asking an easy one like this completely smacks of laziness.

I teach a football class and a basketball class to brand new officials for an organization that I am apart of in conjunction with several area local official's associations in Northern Illinois. The questions these newer officials ask often appear to us to be the silliest questions around but are something they have yet to experience so they ask them for clarification. This might be one of them to you and me, but if he is knew and does not know this it is not only common, but nothing to be surprised by. Football rules are very complicated and often people learn rules by what they see on TV which has nothing to do with the level they will be officiating. We cannot assume this is even an official at this point. I am sure they will come back and explain but they are probably overwhelmed by all the material and start thinking of things they will never see realistically (and they do not know this). I have never seen a kicking team try to kick the ball again, but that worries some people as someone probably said "Can we do this?" Or in some cases I am sure this happen at the youth level and someone suggested they got it wrong. We all were rookies at one time and I know it took me years to learn certain rules very well because many of them did not happen on a regular basis. Then when you screw up the rule, you learn it for life until they change some aspect of the rule and you have to relearn it all over again.

Peace

Wow..welcome to the forum I guess...I am not a registered official or umpire..just watch a lot of sports and thought at some point I would like to get into officiating. Sorry for posting. I guess everyone on this site must need to know everything before posting. Consider this my last post.

Fell free to post anytime. Just understand that this is not normally for fans, it is an officiating site. You get a few people that are territorial with their rules and mechanics, do not mind them.

That being said I figured you might not be an official.

Peace

My apologies then ... but surely you can understand the assumption that you are an official, given that you chose the name REFUMPIRE. Yes?

You know, I run football meetings for 2 associations and we have quite a few new officials. If someone asked me this question, I wouldn't berate them. Why would people choose to come to our association meetings if we berated people?

Why do people do this online instead of politely ask them "Which rule do you think this would be covered in?"

Exactly, this is actually a common question. It usually comes from a youth game or someone claims it happen to them and they did not know what to do.

Peace

mbcrowder, i guess you can use the old saying "never assume because it makes an"---- you know the rest. When I started working football our association met once a week and I'm sure I asked all kinds of stupid question that an old vet would roll his eyes at. If anyone there replied to a question the way you did, I would tell them to pound sand & never come back. All he was asking was a simple question, if you don't like it or it's beneath you to give an answer than don't! Just hit your back arrow and go to a different page.

You're reading into my post an arrogance that was not there.

Perhaps my error was to assume he was an official ... but I did (given the name REFUMPIRE, and given that this is a website for officials, I don't think that is THAT bad of an assumption).

I guess I just tire of the laziness I see here. If an official needed the answer to that question, there's this great book he can go to to find out the answer. People learning one little tidbit by having people answer such questions - and learn a lot more by finding the answer themselves. (And I think you all know that). Maybe I was brusquer than I needed to be - but that was where my thought process was when posting.

You all are acting as if I'm the first person ever who saw a ridiculously simple question like this one and told the poster to look it up. Rich even alludes to it in his response - that if asked this question at a meeting he'd steer the person toward the book. Obviously ... he'd do it nicer than I did... but the idea is the same even if the manner isn't.

Interesting, you read into other's posts things you know nothing about. I guess this does not work when people take your words and take from it what they like. ;)

OK, but this is a discussion board, people tend to ask questions that seem elementary to many of us that is what happen here. This is not a proving ground for everyone's knowledge. And I agree people should try to find out things, but often it is they do not know where to look. I will in about an hour go to a meeting where rules will be discussed and still we will talk after the meeting about situations and circumstances and even disagree until someone pulls out the rulebook. And then we still might not agree because the rules are not always clear in every situation and we need to get a ruling or interpretation from our higher-ups to tell us what should be done. Not everyone is a rules maven.

No you are not the only one. And I can admit I have probably done this over the 10 years of time I have been here as well, but I have learned teaching younger officials that they do not know everything or that fans do not know much of anything either. And if he came here accusing the officials of screwing up then that is one thing, but it was just a question.

Peace

I thought it was a good question. I suspect there are probably quite of few vetaran officials that would be scratching their heads if they seen this happen in their game, wondering if it was legal. Even if he was a new official, one the hardest things a new official has trouble with is finding stuff in the rule book. It took me the better part of my rookie season to be able to find stuff I was looking for, and then the other 10 years trying to remember it all. If I couldn't find something I turned to the forums and asked the question. That's how I learned. I've got no problem with someone asking a "stupid" question because it may lead to other questions that generate some good rules discussions.

MB:
I'm with the majority here. You were out of line. While possibly not your intention, your response smacked of arrogance and intolerance.

The answer to any question on this forum could be, "Look it up!!" Kinda circumvents the whole idea of a football officiating rules forum, huh?

Perhaps we should only stick to questions about black pants vs. knickers?

If it was not clear already, I apologize. Let it go.

There's nothing against this in any of the major codes. I even saw video about a year ago where a place kick got blocked, came back to the holder, the kicker had backed up to "reload", and the kicking team almost had time to get off another place kick!

There was a time in Fed rules where possession by a player of team K killed the ball; they got rid of that about 15 yrs. ago. Also, none of the major codes now allow a 2nd forward pass during a down, even if the 1st pass was blocked.

Indeed. We had this in the 2002 Apple Cup. Picket's pass hit a lineman, bounced back to him, and he threw a second pass for a TD. It was called back for an illegal forward pass.

Then I hope that game wasn't played under Federation rules, because at that time multiple forward passes were legal!

That's the Washington-Washington State game.

Why slam a guy for asking a question? Let's be more welcoming in here. :)(His moniker could imply basketball and baseball.)

your name is funny thats what I call myself when we work 3 man because the referee is also the umpire!!!

I am also a newbie and must tell you, I am extremely disappointed with this response. It will definitely make me think twice before I post a question that "everyone can answer before stepping on the field the very first time."

My thoughts on websites like this is; we are all a brotherhood working towards common goals and objectives. We should respect each other and have fun to get there. These websites are for entertainment and education; not for belittling others!

My opinion is: if you cannot be patient with a newbie and answer questions they are sincere about, regardless of how simple the may seem to you, you shouldn't be responding on website forums like this!

Since you feel the need to place blame on someone in your response, I say, Shame on your parents for failing to teach you the golden rule; "Treat people like you want to be treated yourself!"

Really. How many times do I need to apologize to be ok in your book? Cripes.

no title
 

To all , I really hope that one day i can look at this site without seeing the responses from wise guys.

Most questions only need an answer.

This is an open forum, people will, can and are going to respond how they wish. If you want only answers than you probably should leave the internet right now as that is never going to be always the case. Sorry, but even if I do not like someone's response, that is not going to change that fact anytime soon.

Peace

We old hands forget that there are new people always coming to the forum.
New hands don't realize that many of the questions asked are questions already answered. Most new posters at any forum will be instructed to read the FAQ's before posting. At some forums, particularly the more technical or hard core fan (sports, music, what have you), a newbie can get seriously scorched for asking a perceived "bad question".

Picking a handle like "refumpire" leads others into thinking that one would already know the biz. Some questions asked are probably better off asked in realtime at a local meeting or from a mentor.

Finally, this and a few other officiating sites we seem to all frequent, are not fan oriented sites. Most of us participating are experienced officials and the discussions tend to lead to more technical or historical perspectives not elementary topics.

I'm not saying its ok to be rude and I'm not saying I've not done it. Some of us have just been around longer and are more familiar and thus more casual with our comments sometimes. Kind of like you might say something to a longtime co-worker that you wouldn't say to someone your company just hired.

I learned very quickly in this business though, if your feelings are easily bruised, this may not be the best "hobby" to pick up. That varsity coach, who's livelihood somewhat depends on how his game goes, will be a whole lot rougher than we'll ever be.