Happens all the time, but how do you know he didn't lose the ball after it was dead?
Then what you're saying is to keep grabbing for the ball while officials are trying to sort it out.

So you're saying continuing action after the ball is dead is just part of the game. I don't see why you think bending the rules that way is better than bending them my way.

When it doubt, it is a fumble. So, if I'm not positive that someone has it, I won't signal until I dig the pile. Yes, keep fighting for the ball if you can but don't pile on. If we have a 6-man scum, I pick them off one at a time. If I reach in and feel/see that you don't have it, I say, " you're out #25." I keep going until I know. I've never thrown a flag for two guys on bottom of the pile still going for it. But when I say you are off, then you are off. If you don't clear off, that is where the USC comes in. I'm a coach and a referee. So, I got two dogs in this fight and I want them both to win. :D

There are really no options. If it was an IW during a loose ball, the down has to be replayed. Should an IW happen while the ball is in player possession, then a team would have options.

I have no idea what you're actually advocating, all I know is that it is perfectly possible when there's a pile that the ball can change hands several times and the officials may not be able to see it. In that case, the ball goes to who had it last. That's just football, hold on to the ball! Officials aren't clairvoyant, we can't tell when little Jimmy at the bottom of 15 players has the ball because well...there are 15 players in the way.

Why are we even discussing this? :confused:

Simple: that when the front of a player's frame falls on the ball away from anybody else, you call it dead and in his possession at that point. It'll give you a clearer ruling and require less distortion of the game than what you'd get in almost all cases of requiring something more. Once in a great while the ball will squirt far out and result in uncontested possession somewhere else, but usually you'll just wind up playing another game with rules like that of oncelost77, or anything else that isn't strictly football.

Again you are missing the point. Often the ball is not still or clearly in any form of possession. The ball pops out all the time in those situations and you want us to stop the play just to satisfy some silly point of view that has no rules basis. Sorry, not going to happen because you want it to.

Peace

Even in your silly little interpretation of possession, the responsibility of determining possession falls on the official. (an unbiased view)

We'd still have judgement on the official's part and now have another definition of possession to boot.

Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. :confused:

I didn't take a shot at you, so don't take one at me. I played high school and college ball and currently ref high school and college ball. I also coach a 12yr old team. It seems by your comments that you don't understand strictly football and you want to bend the rules to support your agenda. Did you lose a game that hinged on this issue?

What about receiver downfield blocking? The whistle blows but he stays on his block another second, do I flag him for playing after the whistle? What about coaches trying to influence a call or questioning our calls? Does that warrant a flag everytime? The rule book calls for it. How is not going for the ball under a pile, not strictly football? What sport do you play? Watch Friday night, Saturday or Sunday football and you will see what I am talking about.

So, I guess you are advocating that if we see someone close to or kinda has it secured, to shut it down and give it to him. If a player is on a ball and I don't see it moving, regardless of location of opposing players, I blow it dead and give it to him. I referenced a pile up, didn't I? In my case, I don't see clear possession but there is a RB that fumbled it on the bottom. Do I say, well he was the closest to it when the pile up happened, offense's ball?

This forum, not just this thread, has some of the most stubborn, catty people I have ever seen. We can disagree without pointing fingers or making statements that we can't back up. Dead horse officially beaten, let's move on and discuss politics! It is safer. This forum strikes me as a site that caters to those that want to argue, not debate, but argue.

oncelost, can you send me a PM? Have a question for you.

Thanks

And apparently you want to keep it that way!
But the way some of you want to play it when the near inevitable occurs (a pileup) -- the ball sort of alive, sort of dead -- has no rules basis either, and doesn't draw a clear line.

No, I just see this case being discussed and the mishigos of its being an IW rather than just calling it a correct ruling of dead ball in possession.
If someone clearly got to it first, and you lost sight of it because it was sandwiched between the front of his frame and the ground, and not because of parallax, then yeah. Whatever other ruling you make -- because you can't see the ball as players struggle over it, and therefore don't know when it's dead -- will be arbitrary. You can make up a game like the one you described wherein you allow some players to continue to wrestle over it while you gradually eliminate others, but that has less cx with actual football than does my assertion of dead ball as soon as someone sandwiches it with the ground.

Actually it is not what I want; it is what it is and always has been. And if there is clear possession we rule accordingly before any pile up takes place. Clear possession is not going to stop a pile up in many situations; it just depends on where the ball was fumbled. Actually if you had officiated you probably would realize that the pile up is often a formality. Then again, just because you do not like something is not going to change the reality. I guess you will just have to be upset when the whistle is blown or when possession in your mind is ruled.

Peace

I have never, in over 30 years of officiating, seen a player sandwich a ball to the ground with the front of his frame.

Tell you what. Take your kids out every day this week and have them flop directly on the football with the front of their frame. Try it with the ball at rest, then try it with the ball bounding about. Shoot, you can even have the kids standing directly over the ball at rest while they flop down on it.

Then, get back to us on how many times the ball stayed beneath them.

Also include the tally of the number of broken ribs your guys suffered by teaching this ball recovery method.

You know, I asked you to clarify where you were coming from because I thought there might be a point in there somewhere. I was wrong. Every time you speak, you dig your hole just a little deeper. Stop now before you become Carl Crawford.