Enforcement puzzle
 

Ohio's director of officiating development for football visited our association meeting last night and posed this question to the group:

A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back. Near the goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of the end zone.

What happens next? :)

lacking information
 

B can decline A's foul, and accept the penalty for the block in the back which would be enforced from the 20 as the play resulted in a touchback, or we B can take the offsetting fouls. So we need to know where the ball was snapped from as well as down and distance. My gut tells me that B would most likely want to take the offsetting fouls rather than give the ball back to A first and 10 at the 30...

Answering for NCAA but I think NFHS would be the same:

B was last in possession during the down so they have the option of accepting the penalty and the penalties will offset or they can decline the penalty for A's illegal formation foul and (temporarily) keep the ball.

A then has the option of accepting or declining the penalty for B's illegal block in the back. If they accept, the penalty will be enforced under 3 and 1 (all but one). If A declines, the result of the play is a touchback.

Result of the play is a touchback. If B accepts the penalty, it creates a double foul - replay the down (by rule, A has to accept the penalty against B).

There is a chance that B would decline - and this option has to be explained. Let's say A had the ball at B's 5 yard line. As B, I would decline A's foul. The ball is then placed at the 20 (A's ball after touchback), and the BIB foul moves it to the 30. First and 10 on A's 30 is a whole bunch better than repeating the down at B's 5.

Nope ... if A then accepts B's foul, it's B's ball 10 yards behind the spot of the foul - not 10 yards from the end of the play. A must decline the penalty to get the ball back.

There is more than likely no way that B is going to keep the ball. B has the first option to decline or accept the illegal formation penalty. If they accept there will be a double foul and replay the down. If B declines the penalty then A has the choice to accept or decline B's foul. If they accept, which they probably wont, it is B's ball 10 yds behind the spot of foul. If they accept, then it is their ball 1/10 from A20.

I'll try this without reading any previous replies, or consulting rulebook/casebook... let's see how I do.

Stuff to care about, in order of appearance:
Illegal formation on A
Fumble by A
Possession gained by B
Foul by B (BIB)
Fumble by B
Ball becomes dead behind A's goal line.

1) If B accepts A's foul:
1a) If A accepts B's foul, the down will be replayed at the original LOS.
1b) If A declines B's foul, enforce the A's illegal formation penalty and replay the down.


2) If B declines A's foul:
2a) If A accepts B's foul, enforce 10 yards from the spot of the foul, 1st and 10 for B.
2b) If A declines B's foul, touchback for A.


So it'll probably end up being either 1a, 1b, or 2b, depending on where the original LOS was.

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

B will decline A's illegal formation, and A will accept B's illegal block. It will be B's 1D, 10 yards back from where the ball was when the IB occurred.

First off in the original play I am assuming when B fumbles it is going into team A end zone.

I think we can all agree if B accepts the penalty for IF and A accepts the penalty BIB we will be replaying the down.

If team B declines the penalty for IF, by rule the have recovered the ball with "clean hands". The penalty for BIB occurs behind the runner who is going into the endzone to score. If he were to score a TD or tackled before scoring we would enforce the penalty from the penalty flag aka spot of the foul. 10 yards 1st and 10 team B

BUT

The catch here is the fumble. Lets say there is no flag and the team B player going into the endzone of team A fumbles the football into and out of the endzone we have a touchback rewarded to team A.

SO

Team A would in the play have to decline the penalty of Team Bs BIB to take the results of the play.

With that all being said and as I have probably confused you and myself-

1. If team B accepts the penalty of IF on team A, then team A will accept the penalty on team B BIB and replay the down.

2. If team B declines the penalty of IF on team A, then team could decline the penalty of BIB on team B and should get the ball 1st and 10 on the 20 yard line.



sidenote if for some reason Team B declines, and team A accepts BIB then team B would get the ball 10 yards from the spot of the foul for BIB and 1st and 10.

Spot foul is correct.

So - end the mystery. What did your director say?

We're using this in our next meeting - just to spur a fun discussion.

Oh, it's a cliff hanger. We'll be talking about it at our next meeting, too. :)

Was the fumble from B into A's or B's endzone?

-Josh

B fumbles into A's end zone.

I agree with BoBo. If team B wanted to retain possession, they should not have fumbled the ball or they should have recovered it. Either way A is the next to snap the ball. B does get to decide where they are going to do it.

I'm a new football official so be easy on me ;)

I am going to re-hash the OP with arbitrary yardlines to keep everything straight in my mind.

A’s, 2 and 10 from B’s 20. Team A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back (spot foul at A’s 35). Near A’s goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of A’s end zone.

1.) B’s was the last to possess the ball before it when into A’s goal and subsequently OOB. No other force caused the ball into the endzone and OOB therefore it is a touchback. Team A will have possession of the ball after the touchback (if there were no penalties).

2.) Since Team A would put the ball in play next, they must decide on their penalty first (IBB).

a. If Team A accepts IBB

i. and Team B accepts the IF, it would be a double foul and the down would be replayed (A’s ball, 2nd and 10 from B’s 20)

ii. and Team B declines the IF, it would be Team B’s ball 10 yards from the spot of the IBB (B’s ball, 1st and 10 at A’s 45)

b. If Team A declines the IBB

i. and Team B accepts the IF, it would be Team A's ball 5 yards from the previous spot and replay the down (A's ball, 2nd and 15 from B's 25)

ii. and Team B declines the IF, it would be a touchback (A’s ball, 1st and 10 from A’s 20)

Ok, now murder my thinking… In basketball, I would have called a travel before the crash and no foul :rolleyes:

Sounds like we're all in violent agreement.

I guess my question is, who decides their part of the penalty enforcement first? Isn't it Team A since they would have the ball as result of the play (minus the penalties)?

-Josh

You go in the order of how they happened. Start with B's captain for the IF penalty, then go to A's captain for the BIB penalty.

You're right, but for the wrong reasons. The team last in possession gets the first choice. Since "B" had team possession when the ball became dead, they get the first choice. (10-2-2)

My bad. For some reason I was linking this to the enforcement of dead ball fouls. Probably don't want to do that...

I also have to change my mind on changing my mind. If B's BIB ends up being accepted, the enforcement spot is the 20, not the spot of the foul. Basic spot for enforcement after a touchback is the 20. It's a defensive foul (since A has the ball now), so enforcement is from the basic spot.

I pledge to not change my mind again, but I reserve the right to rescind this change of mind. :)

SO WHAT'S THE CORRECT ANSWER, ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!

The correct answer has been posted in numerous formats.

1. The result of the play is a touchback.
2. B gets first choice of penalty acceptance, since they were last in possession.
3. They will accept the IF penalty, which results automatically in a double foul, and we'll replay the down.
4. If B foolishly declines the penalty for A's foul, A gets a choice and will accept the BIB penalty: 10 yards from the basic spot, which is the A20 after the touchback, so 1/10 for A from the A30.

I don't know if I would say foolishly. The OP never says where the ball was snapped from. If A snapped the ball from B's 10, then I think that I would be declining the IF penalty.

If wouldn't be so foolish for B to accept the penalty if the play started at the B10.

Tired of being wrong on the other thread, decided to try to be wrong here too? Oops.

Wanna get away? :)

Wouldn't the for B's foul be enforced under all but one since they were the offense at the time of the foul? I don't see how A can accept the penalty for B's foul and keep the ball.

Meh. I think you're right.

B's foul occurred during a running play. The basic spot is the end of the run, not the touchback. The touchback is the succeeding spot which is where the ball would be next snapped if a foul had not occurred (2-41-10)

1. The result of the play is a TB.
2. B gets first choice since they got the ball with clean hands.
3. If B accepts the IF: we have a double foul.
4. If B declines the IF: we then give A their choice of accepting or declining.
5. If A accepts the IBB the foul is marked off under ABO.
6. If A declines, we have two declined fouls and the result is the TB, A gets a new series as any team does following a TB.

The only logical choice for B is to accept the IF and replay the down. 10-2-2.

I think we almost have it.

1. The result of the play is a TB.
2. B gets first choice since they got the ball with clean hands.
3. If B accepts the IF: we have a double foul, if A accepts the BIB. Replay the down.
4. If B declines the IF: we then give A their choice of accepting or declining.
5. If A accepts the BIB the foul is marked off under ABO using the 20 yardline because the result of the play was a touchdown. However, B would get the ball 1st and 10 at the 30 because no foul causes loss of possession!
6. If A declines, we have two declined fouls and the result is the TB, A gets a new series as any team does following a TB.

Probably depends on the position of the previous spot. Previouse down and distance might matter as well.

If B accepts the IF, we have a double foul, period. A does not get a choice in that case. 10-2-1c

You are right mbyron, A has no choices if B accepts. It would be a double foul.

You've made two mistakes. This is a play settled under 10-2-2. B got the ball with clean hands. This is nothing more than a clean hands play.

In 3., B got the ball with clean hands so they get first crack at accepting or declining the IF. If B accepts the IF, then we have a double foul, end of story. A won't get a choice. 10-2-1c. (No book, I think 10-2-1c).

In 5., that is totally wrong. What kind of play was occurring at the time of B's IBB? Was it a running play? Was it a loose ball play? You better say running play because it wasn't a loose ball play. Where is a running play enforced from? It's enforced from the end of the run, right? Where was the end of the run? It was where B fumbled. That's why you throw a bean bag. You would enforce B's IBB from the bean bag. I agree no foul causes loss of the ball. The only way A gets the ball because of the touchback is when all fouls have been declined. A would only get the ball at the A-20 if all fouls were declined. Then they would be awarded a new series.

I agree with that.

I think you had this right in an earlier post. While B is in possession, they are by definition the offense. The spot of their foul is behind the basic spot/end of the run (presumably), so under ABO the penalty would be enforced from the spot of the foul.

You are right. B's foul is subject to ABO enforcement. I left that out for simplicity but you are right.