NFHS - Rule 5-1-2(a)

[Welpe]

Just for flavor:

NCAA, offset them. 3rd and 10 at the A-5.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Just for flavor:

NCAA, offset them. 3rd and 10 at the A-5.

Rule ref? This exact play (nearly) was discussed (well... yelled about) at a clinic just last season - basically ALL of the instructors and half of the room vs one guy who insisted they offset. It was clear that if the fouls were completely separate from each other, to enforce them in order. Only nearly simultaneous fouls were to be offset (including nearly immediate retaliation fouls).

[Welpe]

10-1-5 (FR-96)

Emphasis is mine.

Originally Posted by 10-1-5

Dead-Ball Fouls

ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-III)

[Exception: When dead-ball unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the referee and before any of the penalties have been completed, the fouls offset, the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred is unaffected, and the penalties are canceled, except that any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and 10-2-2-a)].

AR 10-1-5-III

Originally Posted by AR 10-1-5-III

Second and goal at the three-yard line. Ball carrier A14 is downed at the one-yard line and then B67 piles on. A14 retaliates by slugging B67.

RULING: The penalties cancel since neither has been completed. A14 is disqualified for fighting. Third and goal (Rule 10-1-1).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

10-1-5 (FR-96)

Emphasis is mine.




AR 10-1-5-III

I guess in my head the separation was more distinct in the OP than the caseplay you posted (I did mention that retaliatory PF's would offset, as in the caseplay)

[cmathews]

before any of the penalties have been completed

this allows a pretty large window...and it shouldn't matter if they were committed on opposite sides of the field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cmathews

before any of the penalties have been completed

this allows a pretty large window...and it shouldn't matter if they were committed on opposite sides of the field.

Fair enough, and point taken.

[cmathews]

I agree though that the case play doesn't make a very good case for the larg window of separation....

[Patton]

I think my thread has been highjacked by the NCAA group, which is a much easier rule to come to a conclusion on.

Back to NHFS...I agree with those who answered 1/10 @ A10, but the rule is not very clear in my eyes, or the people I'm trying to convince. Does anyone have any older casebook plays or other material to help plead my case?

[HLin NC]

What isn't clear? 5-1-2a in part

After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.]

Note its "comma and any dead ball foul by B" You had 2nd down, a dead ball foul by B, which occurred first in order and thus the penalty is assessed against B first. (See 10-2-5) the new series is awarded and then A's penalty is assesesed.

Mark off 15 against B to the A20, 1st down A. Mark off half the distance against A to the A10, set the chains, 1-10 A from the A-10.