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archangel Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:31am

Taking a knee
 
8th grade game, visiting team has the ball with 9 sec left in the game, up by 7, and say they will take a knee. Defense is informed, and crew "pinches" in to watch the last play. On the snap, the nose guard dives under the center, trying to knock the ball loose, but the QB, holding the ball, takes a knee, game over.

R tells home coach as we are walking off the field that Unsportsmanlike Conduct could've been called on the noseguard, even though there was minimal contact and no encroachment.

I believe that since the ball is live on the snap, the defense could recover a fumble, assuming the defense did nothing illegal, and therefore what the noseguard tried is OK...keeping all players safety in mind.
Comments?

MNBlue Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by archangel (Post 786181)
I believe that since the ball is live on the snap, the defense could recover a fumble, assuming the defense did nothing illegal, and therefore what the noseguard tried is OK...keeping all players safety in mind.
Comments?

Agree.

The officials should not have mentioned anything to the defense. Let the offense do their job - down the ball and protect the QB. Let the defense do their job - try to get the ball back so they can win the game. Let the officials do their job - unbiased enforce the rules of the game.

Do we tell the defense when the the offense is going to run a reverse? A pass? A punt?

Just do your job.

Rich Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:32am

Another regional thing. Do as the other crews do in your region.

JRutledge Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 786193)
Another regional thing. Do as the other crews do in your region.

Exactly and we do this all the time. It is preventative officiating and it is expected that if a team tells us this they are not trying to continue the game. We tell the defense to inform them, but that does not mean we will not penalize actions that take place if over the top.

Peace

MD Longhorn Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:41pm

Telling the defense what the offense is doing is stupid at best - and only leads to situations like this one. We hit on this every year. At the VERY most - a warning that if the offense takes a knee, not to hit anyone after the play. Even that is borderline for me. If your "area" is telling the teams to inform the defense, then what is your area telling you to do when the team fakes a knee - or when a noseguard tries this maneuver (something he couldn't have done had you not told him the play) and SUCCEEDS? Or if QB botches the snap.

Is your "area" really telling you to invent a rule and call unsportsmanlike conduct for A) legally running a fake play or B) committing a legal defensive act? That's just stupid. There's no other word. And I guarantee your STATE is not telling you to do this... so what happens when your "area" teams move up in the playoffs?

In any of these cases, you are going the game and the kids a disservice by changing the way a play should have played out.

JRutledge Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 786216)
Is your "area" really telling you to invent a rule and call unsportsmanlike conduct for A) legally running a fake play or B) committing a legal defensive act? That's just stupid. There's no other word. And I guarantee your STATE is not telling you to do this... so what happens when your "area" teams move up in the playoffs?

In any of these cases, you are going the game and the kids a disservice by changing the way a play should have played out.

We have had this discussion before but there are rules that govern faking things in football.

Secondly no one says "do not hit anyone." I have never said that or expected that to happen. Of course they are going to hit each other, but telling players the intentions when the game is clearly over is warning them to not go over the top with their behavior. If a QB takes a knee and he is cleaned I would rather tell them something then have a full out fight. And so you know "teams all over the state know this procedure." It is nothing special when a team enters the playoffs. Also when teams are in the playoffs, they are likely to play games with area teams anyway. Most of my playoff games were always with teams in conferences in the area. Only once was a game with teams in one part of the state and the other was from the other end of the state (St. Louis area and a Chicago area suburban team) and that was a Semi-Final. I recall the same thing happen in that game and no one made a big deal out of it, which is why this is strictly and area thing. The expectations of our teams are to end the game calmly.

Peace

JasonTX Wed Sep 07, 2011 03:22pm

Why even take the last snap then if we are expecting both teams to just quit and not do anything? Just call the game over and be done if we are preventing the defense one last shot to try to get the ball.

Some may say the defense could never get the ball. I say wrong. I had a game where the QB was going to do the kneel down as he told us he was. Well, on the snap it was muffed. Luckily for the defense I didn't tell them anything so they were coming full speed. Offense had their guard down and the defense recovered the ball. Next play was a TD for Team B to win the game. Imagine if I would have told the defense not to do anything. If the offense tells me they are taking the knee I just let them know they better block because the defense is not stopping.

Canned Heat Wed Sep 07, 2011 03:45pm

1) The original post referenced an 8th grade game. I've worked hundreds of these over 20 years and can tell you 8th grade kids will try nearly anything and will forget almost everything. "Preventative officiating" can be considered part-time coaching at this level.

2) Far too often is a good day with a well called game turned sour on the last few snaps because of a situation that pops up at the end of the game. Any kid that's played ball for more than a year or two should know the drill by the time he's in high school anyway. If you get rated by the coaching staffs, the way we do in WI, no matter how good your crew was....a sour note at the final whistle is the last thing the coach remembers when he grabs his eval form that night or the next day.

3) I've been pro-active with this, and I have yet to sniff anything considered unfair or not in the spirit of the game by showing the hand on the last play. The team being kneeled upon has had 47 minutes and 30 seconds to get the lead and couldn't do it. If anything, this is good game management.

4) Doing little to nothing in this situation is far worse than doing or saying too much to prevent something from breaking bad, IMO....see the Sarasota Gators video.

5) There are other words to use in lieu of stupid.

Canned Heat Wed Sep 07, 2011 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 786257)
Why even take the last snap then if we are expecting both teams to just quit and not do anything? Just call the game over and be done if we are preventing the defense one last shot to try to get the ball.

Some may say the defense could never get the ball. I say wrong. I had a game where the QB was going to do the kneel down as he told us he was. Well, on the snap it was muffed. Luckily for the defense I didn't tell them anything so they were coming full speed. Offense had their guard down and the defense recovered the ball. Next play was a TD for Team B to win the game. Imagine if I would have told the defense not to do anything. If the offense tells me they are taking the knee I just let them know they better block because the defense is not stopping.

I would literally pay to see video of this. Not saying it didn't happen, but would love to see the subsequent reaction of the opposing staff, team, crowd and especially...the officials.

BIG UMP Wed Sep 07, 2011 04:01pm

I'll have to admit I'm in the say nothing group.

It is not our job to inform the defense to stop playing or to not try and get the ball legally.

Hypothetical situation: A muffs the snap and we have told the defense to lay off. A recovers the muff and wins, while the defense goes to their sideline and says the referees said not to hit them. How will you ever answer the questions your supervisors have, not to mention the irate coaching staff?

SE Minnestoa Re Wed Sep 07, 2011 04:07pm

I'm not a big fan of telling them to lay off. I however tell them regularly if the QB does kneel down, I want nothing stupid happening.

bisonlj Wed Sep 07, 2011 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re (Post 786269)
I'm not a big fan of telling them to lay off. I however tell them regularly if the QB does kneel down, I want nothing stupid happening.

Bingo.

"They say they are taking a knee. Be smart."

JasonTX Wed Sep 07, 2011 06:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 786283)
Bingo.

"They say they are taking a knee. Be smart."

Agree as well. "Drop down quickly and don't hit the QB late" works as well.

I am still waiting for teams to figure out that they can already be on a knee when the ball is snapped.

Jim S Thu Sep 08, 2011 01:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 786221)
We have had this discussion before but there are rules that govern faking things in football.

Peace

And what would these "Live Ball" rules be?

JRutledge Thu Sep 08, 2011 01:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim S (Post 786356)
And what would these "Live Ball" rules be?

Not sure what live ball rules you are talking about. But it is clear that you cannot run deception plays in football anymore. They cannot fake taking a knee.

Peace

CT1 Thu Sep 08, 2011 07:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 786357)
Not sure what live ball rules you are talking about. But it is clear that you cannot run deception plays in football anymore. They cannot fake taking a knee.
Peace

Would you care to quote the rule that prohibits a fake take-a-knee play?

JRutledge Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 786382)
Would you care to quote the rule that prohibits a fake take-a-knee play?

First of all it is a state interpretation to do this.

Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts.

Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down.

Peace

jTheUmp Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:22am

NCAA Rule 4-1-3:
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
...
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.
...

CT1 Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 786424)
First of all it is a state interpretation to do this.

Then you should have said so.

Quote:

Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts.
Before the snap.

Here's the Comment in it's entirety:

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

Quote:

Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down.
The OP's play was during a middle-school game. Unless it was in Texas or Massachussets, NCAA rules don't apply. FED has no such specific prohibition.

JRutledge Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 786437)
Then you should have said so.

Actually I did say so. I said this is what we do; I honestly do not care if others do something different or what justification they use. I made that clear very early and Rich said to follow the standards of your area in the first couple posts on this thread.

And most of all we have had this discussion many times before. No one is going to change the minds of others and I certainly am not trying to change other's minds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 786437)
Before the snap.

Here's the Comment in it's entirety:

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

For the record around here, they announce they are taking a knee. It happens in just about every game. The purpose is so they can end the game amicably and without incident or as little incident as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 786437)
The OP's play was during a middle-school game. Unless it was in Texas or Massachussets, NCAA rules don't apply. FED has no such specific prohibition.

I realize what the game we were talking about. The point is multiple levels have made it clear that if they are taking a knee we are proactive in not letting things continue or get out of hand. If you and others do not do this, so be it. Why would anyone really care what you do that does not live in your area? Also a middle school game is often played around here under NF rules and philosophies, so what is expected at the HS level is applied to the middle school/Pop Warner/Bill George leagues. And I also never said we tell players that they cannot hit each other or play football. I said that it is known they will take a knee and we tell players to behave. No different than what umpires in my area tell defensive teams when there is a scrimmage kick. They tell them what they can do with the snapper and it is up to the players to either listen or get penalized.

Peace

Rich Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:56pm

If the QB tells me he's taking a knee, I guess we'll just have an IW when he fakes doing so. Shrug.

Again, this is regional. If every crew in your area says something, you should too. If every crew in your area doesn't say anything, neither should you.

JRutledge Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 786448)
If the QB tells me he's taking a knee, I guess we'll just have an IW when he fakes doing so. Shrug.

Again, this is regional. If every crew in your area says something, you should too. If every crew in your area doesn't say anything, neither should you.

+1

Peace

mbyron Thu Sep 08, 2011 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 786448)
Again, this is regional. If every crew in your area says something, you should too. If every crew in your area doesn't say anything, neither should you.

Apparently, some folks can't abide this kind of variability. :shrug:

Reffing Rev. Sat Sep 17, 2011 03:38pm

I hate resurrecting an old thread but

Last night 4th quarter A's up by 14 with 2 minutes to play and B is out of timeouts, 1st down near midfield...Victory formation...we decided this year in varsity games we're not saying anything unless our 35-point running clock rule is in effect in the 4th quarter and the game is 'practically' over. Snapper snaps the ball off the QB's knee and we ended up with a pile up under the center. B recovered and scored on the next play, onside kick nearly recovered, could have been a big moment if we had the defense 'relaxed.'

JRutledge Sat Sep 17, 2011 04:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 788149)
I hate resurrecting an old thread but

Last night 4th quarter A's up by 14 with 2 minutes to play and B is out of timeouts, 1st down near midfield...Victory formation...we decided this year in varsity games we're not saying anything unless our 35-point running clock rule is in effect in the 4th quarter and the game is 'practically' over. Snapper snaps the ball off the QB's knee and we ended up with a pile up under the center. B recovered and scored on the next play, onside kick nearly recovered, could have been a big moment if we had the defense 'relaxed.'

My question is why would they run the formation with 2 minutes to go? That is a lot of time even if you run the play properly.

Again, I do not recall anyone saying for the "defense" to relax. I really wish sometimes people would read what the opposition is rather than assuming what someone's position is.

Peace

Texas Aggie Sat Sep 17, 2011 07:48pm

Quote:

The officials should not have mentioned anything to the defense.
Ahhh, no.

This is horrible advice and I hope those following it do not see a kid hurt on a play like this. Injuries are virtually never your fault, but in this case, if someone gets hurt and you didn't tell everyone a knee was coming, in my view, that's on you.

Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

HLin NC Sun Sep 18, 2011 06:52am

Our game Friday night, offense failed to convert on fourth down and about 11 secs to go. All I said (and normally say) in these situations to their defense was "Be smart guys).

JRutledge Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 788216)
Our game Friday night, offense failed to convert on fourth down and about 11 secs to go. All I said (and normally say) in these situations to their defense was "Be smart guys).

That is pretty much what we say.

Peace

Cobra Sun Sep 18, 2011 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 788169)
Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

What if the snap is muffed? Can the defense hit someone and recover the ball? What if the offense doesn't take a knee? How exactly are they committed to running a certain play?

As has been posted there are regional differences in how to handle this situation....but your way of handling it is the ONLY one that is 100% wrong.

And it is not the officials fault if anyone gets hurt on a kneel down play. It is no different than any other down of the game. The ball becomes live and players run into each other and injuries happen. The only difference is that the offense is trying to end the down quickly therefore there isn't much time for an injury to occur.

JasonTX Sun Sep 18, 2011 05:07pm

It's not over til the clock is on 0:00. Offense has a game to finish by blocking and the defense has a job to do by trying to make a play. They have every right to play hard until the ball is dead by rule. It is not my job to take away an oppurtunity by telling them to lay off. If anyone is afraid of someone getting hurt and expecting the defense to lay off, then why don't you just disregard the 25 sec. clock and just let the clock run off without having another snap? Either way you handle it, you are still taking the oppurtunity that team B has at getting to the ball. JMO.

JRutledge Sun Sep 18, 2011 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 788256)
It's not over til the clock is on 0:00. Offense has a game to finish by blocking and the defense has a job to do by trying to make a play. They have every right to play hard until the ball is dead by rule. It is not my job to take away an oppurtunity by telling them to lay off. If anyone is afraid of someone getting hurt and expecting the defense to lay off, then why don't you just disregard the 25 sec. clock and just let the clock run off without having another snap? Either way you handle it, you are still taking the oppurtunity that team B has at getting to the ball. JMO.

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

JasonTX Sun Sep 18, 2011 06:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788259)
This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

Do you tell them to "be careful" on every play of the game? The defense, I believe, is fully aware that they cannot hit a player after the ball is dead. When you tell a kid to "be careful" on a kneel down you have essentially told him to not go full speed. You have a muffed snap and the defense has basically quit because that is how they interpret your "be careful" you have taken away their right to play to 0:00. I believe in preventive officiating 100%. I'm just as prepared to flag a late hit on a kneel down play just as I am a normal play in the first qtr. I'm quickly coming in when he takes a knee, just as I do on any other play where there are piles of players after making a tackle. As I said previously, if you are expecting the players to ease up, then just let the clock run without a delay foul.

JRutledge Sun Sep 18, 2011 07:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 788264)
Do you tell them to "be careful" on every play of the game? The defense, I believe, is fully aware that they cannot hit a player after the ball is dead. When you tell a kid to "be careful" on a kneel down you have essentially told him to not go full speed.

Actually I tell players a lot of the time stuff not to do during the game when the ball is dead. That is what I have done for years and just about every official that knows anything about football does the same thing. Oh, it is not just a HS thing; it is a college thing too from my experience. We talk to players a lot so we do not have to throw flags or unsportsmanlike or even personal fouls. Why is this time any different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 788264)
You have a muffed snap and the defense has basically quit because that is how they interpret your "be careful" you have taken away their right to play to 0:00. I believe in preventive officiating 100%. I'm just as prepared to flag a late hit on a kneel down play just as I am a normal play in the first qtr.

But you keep talking about a muffed snap which I almost never seen at this point of the game at any level. If there is a muffed snap, then so be it. And if you think players only listen to us anyway, then you give us a little more credit then we deserve. I talk to players in a lot of football games and there is still a flag thrown for the very thing I warned them about. Sometimes the very player I warned for their behavior. Yep, the only listen to what we say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 788264)
I'm quickly coming in when he takes a knee, just as I do on any other play where there are piles of players after making a tackle. As I said previously, if you are expecting the players to ease up, then just let the clock run without a delay foul.

Why change what you did the entire game right? Remember you said that everything is the same so why do you need to come in quickly? Sounds to me you are doing something you are being critical of others for doing. And again, I did not tell them to ease up or stop playing football; we tell them to be careful. Again this is what we do; it does not have to be what you do. In the culture of “our game” teams do the sportsmanlike thing and do not try to charge on a kneel down play. That is not just from what the officials tell them, that is how the coaches expect them to behave.

I will give one more analogy. This is kind of like the discussion people had about the Mayweather-Ortiz fight last night. There are some standards that are expected even when you are participating in a sport. Right or wrong on a football field you better be prepared to protect yourself. And some in that discussion felt that you should only wait until everything was OK to.

The bottom line is most games this is not even an issue. Most games are not one possession games where the snap a bad snap is going to decide the game. I have yet to have a game this year was even in question. Most games are blowouts or more than 2 possession games where even a bad snap would not change the outcome of any game. So this fear that "what if.." is really kind of silly to me. Most of the time the game is clearly over and the teams want to go on to the next week with all their players eligible the next game.

Peace

JasonTX Sun Sep 18, 2011 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788275)
Actually I tell players a lot of the time stuff not to do during the game when the ball is dead. That is what I have done for years and just about every official that knows anything about football does the same thing. Oh, it is not just a HS thing; it is a college thing too from my experience. We talk to players a lot so we do not have to throw flags or unsportsmanlike or even personal fouls. Why is this time any different?



But you keep talking about a muffed snap which I almost never seen at this point of the game at any level. If there is a muffed snap, then so be it. And if you think players only listen to us anyway, then you give us a little more credit then we deserve. I talk to players in a lot of football games and there is still a flag thrown for the very thing I warned them about. Sometimes the very player I warned for their behavior. Yep, the only listen to what we say.



Why change what you did the entire game right? Remember you said that everything is the same so why do you need to come in quickly? Sounds to me you are doing something you are being critical of others for doing. And again, I did not tell them to ease up or stop playing football; we tell them to be careful. Again this is what we do; it does not have to be what you do. In the culture of “our game” teams do the sportsmanlike thing and do not try to charge on a kneel down play. That is not just from what the officials tell them, that is how the coaches expect them to behave.

I will give one more analogy. This is kind of like the discussion people had about the Mayweather-Ortiz fight last night. There are some standards that are expected even when you are participating in a sport. Right or wrong on a football field you better be prepared to protect yourself. And some in that discussion felt that you should only wait until everything was OK to.

The bottom line is most games this is not even an issue. Most games are not one possession games where the snap a bad snap is going to decide the game. I have yet to have a game this year was even in question. Most games are blowouts or more than 2 possession games where even a bad snap would not change the outcome of any game. So this fear that "what if.." is really kind of silly to me. Most of the time the game is clearly over and the teams want to go on to the next week with all their players eligible the next game.

Peace

Good points. I guess my point is that in all the times we were told it was a "taking a knee" play, I've never said anything to the defense and I've never had any issues or cheap shots from not saying anything to them.

JRutledge Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 788281)
Good points. I guess my point is that in all the times we were told it was a "taking a knee" play, I've never said anything to the defense and I've never had any issues or cheap shots from not saying anything to them.

I am not in total disagreement with your position at all, I have to make that clear. My point is that is what is accepted here or similar surroundings I am sure and would not be accepted in other places. I find nothing right or wrong as long as everyone is pretty much on the same page. You make some excellent points and I would have no problem doing that if it was not as common here.

Peace

Eastshire Mon Sep 19, 2011 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 788169)
The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788259)
This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

Emphasis in both quotes is mine.

Jeff, JasonTX was responding to Texas Aggie who indeed did say the only way to handle the situation was to tell the defense to not hit anyone. That's not putting words into someone's mouth. And it's pretty clear Texas Aggie is going too far and doing far more than reminding the defense to play with due care.

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 19, 2011 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 788169)
Ahhh, no.

This is horrible advice and I hope those following it do not see a kid hurt on a play like this. Injuries are virtually never your fault, but in this case, if someone gets hurt and you didn't tell everyone a knee was coming, in my view, that's on you.

Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

Apples and oranges, given that your rules state that simulating taking a knee kills the play.

That said, what is stupid is telling the defense what play the offense is going to run, and also telling the offense they must run the play they announced.

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 19, 2011 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788259)
This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard.

That's what's so frustrating with having a real conversation with you here. You assume he's talking to you (he wasn't ... he quoted the person he was replying to), and you say crap like "no one here said ..." when SEVERAL people have said EXACTLY that and/or parts of that... including the person he was responding to. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. YOU might not say or imply what he was referring to... but a LOT of referees do including many here - and it's flat wrong.

ajmc Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788346)
That's what's so frustrating with having a real conversation with you here. You assume he's talking to you (he wasn't ... he quoted the person he was replying to), and you say crap like "no one here said ..." when SEVERAL people have said EXACTLY that and/or parts of that... including the person he was responding to. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. YOU might not say or imply what he was referring to... but a LOT of referees do including many here - and it's flat wrong.

I agree with JRutledge that this is largely a regional practice. In Upstate NY, when informed the offense is taking a knee, Referees usually move extremely close to the QB, and say whatever they choose to say to insure that nobody does anything stupid, as well as provide an instant whistle to minimize foolishness.

The players understand the reality of the moment 99.9% of the time. Faking a knee, after advising one will be taken is simply not an option as it will accomplish nothing following that instant whistle, other than an angry Referee.

If you are truly uncomfortable with how this type situation is handled in your area, then YOU have a difficult decision to make. Deciding to end a contest, whose result has already been decided, smoothly, rather than unncessarily risk any one of 22 teenagers being frustrated, to the point of doing something really stupid without thinking through the possible consequences, seems like a rational judgment rather than being, "flat wrong", but it's the Referee's call.

JRutledge Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788346)
That's what's so frustrating with having a real conversation with you here. You assume he's talking to you (he wasn't ... he quoted the person he was replying to), and you say crap like "no one here said ..." when SEVERAL people have said EXACTLY that and/or parts of that... including the person he was responding to. Go re-read the thread if you don't believe me. YOU might not say or imply what he was referring to... but a LOT of referees do including many here - and it's flat wrong.

Actually he and others are taking a position, it has nothing to do with me specifically other than I was one that took an opposite position from him and others. If that bothers you that I responded, then maybe these boards are not for you. People are going to respond to anyone's comments regardless of who stated them. I have not run into a single board where people do not take sides and there is a possible debate. And in this discussion it was implied that people said something that was not said. I did read all the comments and not one said anything that was accused. Now if someone in another thread made that comment, then addresses their comments. But what people do here is they disagree with someone and they add to the points of the discussion that were never addressed. No one here said anything about telling players not to hit each other, but every response suggested that very thing was advocated. I also think that Jason and I kind of understood each other in the end, which is why we have these discussions in the first place even if you do not agree all the time.

Peace

Eastshire Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788355)
No one here said anything about telling players not to hit each other

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 788169)
The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

So you read the whole thread but missed this point even when I specifically pointed it out to you the first time?

JRutledge Mon Sep 19, 2011 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 788379)
So you read the whole thread but missed this point even when I specifically pointed it out to you the first time?

Take that up with him. I do not advocating anything other than telling players to be smart. As I said before we talk to players all day about all kinds of things and all of a sudden we should not talk to them in a situation where the game is clearly over? I have never seen a missed snap in these situations, but I have seen players get upset with each other and be chippy. I do not agree we should tell anyone to not touch each other, I just want them to be smart so they play the following week.

Peace

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788355)
If that bothers you that I responded, then maybe these boards are not for you.

It doesn't bother me at ALL that you responded.

It bothers me that you got all bent out of shape that he dare disagree with someone else (not you) who said something - and you further go on to say that no one is saying the EXACT thing that was said. It was your tone of denigrating him for misunderstanding YOU when he was not even replying to you.

The fact remains that MANY here are saying exactly what you claim no one is saying. I have very little issue with the way you say you personally handle this situation, especially given that it seems to be common in your area. I have LARGE issues with the fact that some officials (some I've worked with, even) will flat out tell the offense they can't run a play - and tell the defense what the offense is doing. Frankly, unless told by the higher ups in the region or state, our job is to OFFICIATE - not to coach. And definitely not to tip off either side. At the VERY MOST - I can see an official saying something like, "OK, defense, IF the offense takes a knee, don't be stupid." But I've heard referees tell teams "OK, relax! They are taking a knee here - I don't want to see anyone moving." It really chaps my hide.

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788151)
My question is why would they run the formation with 2 minutes to go? That is a lot of time even if you run the play properly.

Hmmm... this happened in the NFL Sunday night game just last night. You can EASILY run 2 minutes off the clock with 3 knees... and even more easily so in NCAA than NFL... and more easily in FED than NCAA.

JRutledge Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788419)
It doesn't bother me at ALL that you responded.

It bothers me that you got all bent out of shape that he dare disagree with someone else (not you) who said something - and you further go on to say that no one is saying the EXACT thing that was said. It was your tone of denigrating him for misunderstanding YOU when he was not even replying to you.

What is bent out of shape to you? Other than responding to this thread, I do not think I thought much about what was said here. I do not even think I even discussed this situation with my crew or anyone else. So being out of shape is a little much doing you think? I do not recall throwing anything at the computer screen. Stop it with the hyperbole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788419)
The fact remains that MANY here are saying exactly what you claim no one is saying. I have very little issue with the way you say you personally handle this situation, especially given that it seems to be common in your area. I have LARGE issues with the fact that some officials (some I've worked with, even) will flat out tell the offense they can't run a play - and tell the defense what the offense is doing. Frankly, unless told by the higher ups in the region or state, our job is to OFFICIATE - not to coach. And definitely not to tip off either side. At the VERY MOST - I can see an official saying something like, "OK, defense, IF the offense takes a knee, don't be stupid." But I've heard referees tell teams "OK, relax! They are taking a knee here - I don't want to see anyone moving." It really chaps my hide.

You showed one guy who I missed a specific comment. And when this thread was started he was not even in the conversation. I am not here to defend every single person and their position on this issue. This like many other issues has layers to them. So I am not sure how "many" made such a claim either way other than there are folks that put everyone on the opposite position in the same boat. This is also why way back in the beginning of this thread someone said do what applies in your area. Those expectations will vary just like everything else we talk about here (rules application, mechanics, administrative policy) are all going to ultimately be based on what is accepted or not accepted in your area. And this issue is certainly one of them.

Forgive me for missing one of the many with the same or similar handle. But I do not recall seeing many saying anything in concert with one another from my point of view.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788421)
Hmmm... this happened in the NFL Sunday night game just last night. You can EASILY run 2 minutes off the clock with 3 knees... and even more easily so in NCAA than NFL... and more easily in FED than NCAA.

Doesn't NCAA and NFL have different rules?

Peace

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788431)
Doesn't NCAA and NFL have different rules?

Peace

Yes... my point exactly.

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788430)
What is bent out of shape to you?

This:
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 788430)
This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard.

Quote:

You showed one guy who I missed a specific comment. And when this thread was started he was not even in the conversation.
One guy? It was the one you responded to with "This is what is so frustrating". The guy you actually said this TO is the one that specifically did not do what got you so "frustrated". You responded to HIM that he takes words and places them in people's arguments.

No offense, but this REALLY isn't that hard to follow.

JRutledge Mon Sep 19, 2011 03:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788437)
This:

One guy? It was the one you responded to with "This is what is so frustrating". The guy you actually said this TO is the one that specifically did not do what got you so "frustrated". You responded to HIM that he takes words and places them in people's arguments.

No offense, but this REALLY isn't that hard to follow.

Yes, I am soooooooooo offended. Maybe I will jump out the first floor window that I am currently sitting at.

Frustration and being offended are two totally different things. I realize that for you this is probably your life to have a discussion here and to come after me, but this is passing time for me. I am trying to finish a project and in-between doing that and some things around where I am located. I take a position to discuss things, not to get upset with people I will never have to work with over what is said here. I think I am good without guys like you and if you disagree with something I do so be it. It is Week 5 year and we have 4 more to go until the post season. Have a great season the rest of the way, I know I will.

Keep up the good work. :)

Peace

mbyron Tue Sep 20, 2011 07:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 788437)
One guy? It was the one you responded to with "This is what is so frustrating". The guy you actually said this TO is the one that specifically did not do what got you so "frustrated". You responded to HIM that he takes words and places them in people's arguments.

No offense, but this REALLY isn't that hard to follow.

Try nailing jello to a wall lately? :D

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 20, 2011 08:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 788494)
Try nailing jello to a wall lately? :D

Mmm. Yes, good point. Realized that just now when he introduced a whole new adjective that I never said or implied, and claimed it's different than what I did say. Whatever. I'll take your advice and stop fighting this windmill.

JRutledge Tue Sep 20, 2011 01:01pm

Just for the record I just read this discussion about what happens near the end of the game on another site which involves people specifically from my state (and someone that comes here from time to time as well). The exact same position was stated and the individuals talking are not directly from my area. Several officials said that they tell the defense they are taking a knee and use preventative officiating like I have suggested. You can argue whatever you like but it appears that this is a regional issue where this is accepted in some areas and not in others. Like said long time ago, do what those do in your area and leave it at that.

Peace


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