Taking a knee
8th grade game, visiting team has the ball with 9 sec left in the game, up by 7, and say they will take a knee. Defense is informed, and crew "pinches" in to watch the last play. On the snap, the nose guard dives under the center, trying to knock the ball loose, but the QB, holding the ball, takes a knee, game over.
R tells home coach as we are walking off the field that Unsportsmanlike Conduct could've been called on the noseguard, even though there was minimal contact and no encroachment. I believe that since the ball is live on the snap, the defense could recover a fumble, assuming the defense did nothing illegal, and therefore what the noseguard tried is OK...keeping all players safety in mind. Comments? |
Quote:
The officials should not have mentioned anything to the defense. Let the offense do their job - down the ball and protect the QB. Let the defense do their job - try to get the ball back so they can win the game. Let the officials do their job - unbiased enforce the rules of the game. Do we tell the defense when the the offense is going to run a reverse? A pass? A punt? Just do your job. |
Another regional thing. Do as the other crews do in your region.
|
Quote:
Peace |
Telling the defense what the offense is doing is stupid at best - and only leads to situations like this one. We hit on this every year. At the VERY most - a warning that if the offense takes a knee, not to hit anyone after the play. Even that is borderline for me. If your "area" is telling the teams to inform the defense, then what is your area telling you to do when the team fakes a knee - or when a noseguard tries this maneuver (something he couldn't have done had you not told him the play) and SUCCEEDS? Or if QB botches the snap.
Is your "area" really telling you to invent a rule and call unsportsmanlike conduct for A) legally running a fake play or B) committing a legal defensive act? That's just stupid. There's no other word. And I guarantee your STATE is not telling you to do this... so what happens when your "area" teams move up in the playoffs? In any of these cases, you are going the game and the kids a disservice by changing the way a play should have played out. |
Quote:
Secondly no one says "do not hit anyone." I have never said that or expected that to happen. Of course they are going to hit each other, but telling players the intentions when the game is clearly over is warning them to not go over the top with their behavior. If a QB takes a knee and he is cleaned I would rather tell them something then have a full out fight. And so you know "teams all over the state know this procedure." It is nothing special when a team enters the playoffs. Also when teams are in the playoffs, they are likely to play games with area teams anyway. Most of my playoff games were always with teams in conferences in the area. Only once was a game with teams in one part of the state and the other was from the other end of the state (St. Louis area and a Chicago area suburban team) and that was a Semi-Final. I recall the same thing happen in that game and no one made a big deal out of it, which is why this is strictly and area thing. The expectations of our teams are to end the game calmly. Peace |
Why even take the last snap then if we are expecting both teams to just quit and not do anything? Just call the game over and be done if we are preventing the defense one last shot to try to get the ball.
Some may say the defense could never get the ball. I say wrong. I had a game where the QB was going to do the kneel down as he told us he was. Well, on the snap it was muffed. Luckily for the defense I didn't tell them anything so they were coming full speed. Offense had their guard down and the defense recovered the ball. Next play was a TD for Team B to win the game. Imagine if I would have told the defense not to do anything. If the offense tells me they are taking the knee I just let them know they better block because the defense is not stopping. |
1) The original post referenced an 8th grade game. I've worked hundreds of these over 20 years and can tell you 8th grade kids will try nearly anything and will forget almost everything. "Preventative officiating" can be considered part-time coaching at this level.
2) Far too often is a good day with a well called game turned sour on the last few snaps because of a situation that pops up at the end of the game. Any kid that's played ball for more than a year or two should know the drill by the time he's in high school anyway. If you get rated by the coaching staffs, the way we do in WI, no matter how good your crew was....a sour note at the final whistle is the last thing the coach remembers when he grabs his eval form that night or the next day. 3) I've been pro-active with this, and I have yet to sniff anything considered unfair or not in the spirit of the game by showing the hand on the last play. The team being kneeled upon has had 47 minutes and 30 seconds to get the lead and couldn't do it. If anything, this is good game management. 4) Doing little to nothing in this situation is far worse than doing or saying too much to prevent something from breaking bad, IMO....see the Sarasota Gators video. 5) There are other words to use in lieu of stupid. |
Quote:
|
I'll have to admit I'm in the say nothing group.
It is not our job to inform the defense to stop playing or to not try and get the ball legally. Hypothetical situation: A muffs the snap and we have told the defense to lay off. A recovers the muff and wins, while the defense goes to their sideline and says the referees said not to hit them. How will you ever answer the questions your supervisors have, not to mention the irate coaching staff? |
I'm not a big fan of telling them to lay off. I however tell them regularly if the QB does kneel down, I want nothing stupid happening.
|
Quote:
"They say they are taking a knee. Be smart." |
Quote:
I am still waiting for teams to figure out that they can already be on a knee when the ball is snapped. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts. Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down. Peace |
NCAA Rule 4-1-3:
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead: ... o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground. ... |
Quote:
Quote:
Here's the Comment in it's entirety: COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal. Quote:
|
Quote:
And most of all we have had this discussion many times before. No one is going to change the minds of others and I certainly am not trying to change other's minds. Quote:
Quote:
Peace |
If the QB tells me he's taking a knee, I guess we'll just have an IW when he fakes doing so. Shrug.
Again, this is regional. If every crew in your area says something, you should too. If every crew in your area doesn't say anything, neither should you. |
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
|
I hate resurrecting an old thread but
Last night 4th quarter A's up by 14 with 2 minutes to play and B is out of timeouts, 1st down near midfield...Victory formation...we decided this year in varsity games we're not saying anything unless our 35-point running clock rule is in effect in the 4th quarter and the game is 'practically' over. Snapper snaps the ball off the QB's knee and we ended up with a pile up under the center. B recovered and scored on the next play, onside kick nearly recovered, could have been a big moment if we had the defense 'relaxed.' |
Quote:
Again, I do not recall anyone saying for the "defense" to relax. I really wish sometimes people would read what the opposition is rather than assuming what someone's position is. Peace |
Quote:
This is horrible advice and I hope those following it do not see a kid hurt on a play like this. Injuries are virtually never your fault, but in this case, if someone gets hurt and you didn't tell everyone a knee was coming, in my view, that's on you. Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different. |
Our game Friday night, offense failed to convert on fourth down and about 11 secs to go. All I said (and normally say) in these situations to their defense was "Be smart guys).
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
As has been posted there are regional differences in how to handle this situation....but your way of handling it is the ONLY one that is 100% wrong. And it is not the officials fault if anyone gets hurt on a kneel down play. It is no different than any other down of the game. The ball becomes live and players run into each other and injuries happen. The only difference is that the offense is trying to end the down quickly therefore there isn't much time for an injury to occur. |
It's not over til the clock is on 0:00. Offense has a game to finish by blocking and the defense has a job to do by trying to make a play. They have every right to play hard until the ball is dead by rule. It is not my job to take away an oppurtunity by telling them to lay off. If anyone is afraid of someone getting hurt and expecting the defense to lay off, then why don't you just disregard the 25 sec. clock and just let the clock run off without having another snap? Either way you handle it, you are still taking the oppurtunity that team B has at getting to the ball. JMO.
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I will give one more analogy. This is kind of like the discussion people had about the Mayweather-Ortiz fight last night. There are some standards that are expected even when you are participating in a sport. Right or wrong on a football field you better be prepared to protect yourself. And some in that discussion felt that you should only wait until everything was OK to. The bottom line is most games this is not even an issue. Most games are not one possession games where the snap a bad snap is going to decide the game. I have yet to have a game this year was even in question. Most games are blowouts or more than 2 possession games where even a bad snap would not change the outcome of any game. So this fear that "what if.." is really kind of silly to me. Most of the time the game is clearly over and the teams want to go on to the next week with all their players eligible the next game. Peace |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
Quote:
Jeff, JasonTX was responding to Texas Aggie who indeed did say the only way to handle the situation was to tell the defense to not hit anyone. That's not putting words into someone's mouth. And it's pretty clear Texas Aggie is going too far and doing far more than reminding the defense to play with due care. |
Quote:
That said, what is stupid is telling the defense what play the offense is going to run, and also telling the offense they must run the play they announced. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
The players understand the reality of the moment 99.9% of the time. Faking a knee, after advising one will be taken is simply not an option as it will accomplish nothing following that instant whistle, other than an angry Referee. If you are truly uncomfortable with how this type situation is handled in your area, then YOU have a difficult decision to make. Deciding to end a contest, whose result has already been decided, smoothly, rather than unncessarily risk any one of 22 teenagers being frustrated, to the point of doing something really stupid without thinking through the possible consequences, seems like a rational judgment rather than being, "flat wrong", but it's the Referee's call. |
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
It bothers me that you got all bent out of shape that he dare disagree with someone else (not you) who said something - and you further go on to say that no one is saying the EXACT thing that was said. It was your tone of denigrating him for misunderstanding YOU when he was not even replying to you. The fact remains that MANY here are saying exactly what you claim no one is saying. I have very little issue with the way you say you personally handle this situation, especially given that it seems to be common in your area. I have LARGE issues with the fact that some officials (some I've worked with, even) will flat out tell the offense they can't run a play - and tell the defense what the offense is doing. Frankly, unless told by the higher ups in the region or state, our job is to OFFICIATE - not to coach. And definitely not to tip off either side. At the VERY MOST - I can see an official saying something like, "OK, defense, IF the offense takes a knee, don't be stupid." But I've heard referees tell teams "OK, relax! They are taking a knee here - I don't want to see anyone moving." It really chaps my hide. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Forgive me for missing one of the many with the same or similar handle. But I do not recall seeing many saying anything in concert with one another from my point of view. Peace |
Quote:
Peace |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No offense, but this REALLY isn't that hard to follow. |
Quote:
Frustration and being offended are two totally different things. I realize that for you this is probably your life to have a discussion here and to come after me, but this is passing time for me. I am trying to finish a project and in-between doing that and some things around where I am located. I take a position to discuss things, not to get upset with people I will never have to work with over what is said here. I think I am good without guys like you and if you disagree with something I do so be it. It is Week 5 year and we have 4 more to go until the post season. Have a great season the rest of the way, I know I will. Keep up the good work. :) Peace |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Just for the record I just read this discussion about what happens near the end of the game on another site which involves people specifically from my state (and someone that comes here from time to time as well). The exact same position was stated and the individuals talking are not directly from my area. Several officials said that they tell the defense they are taking a knee and use preventative officiating like I have suggested. You can argue whatever you like but it appears that this is a regional issue where this is accepted in some areas and not in others. Like said long time ago, do what those do in your area and leave it at that.
Peace |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:49am. |