The Officials in the NFL have taken some real heat lately.

There was the "blown call" in the Niner / Giant Game (Jim Fassel received a call from the League Office Stating such) and a very questionable running into the kicker penalty at the end of the Steeler / Titan Game. Also during the Steeler / Titan Game the officials did not know what was Challengeable or Not.

In Baseball, Umpiring is a FULL Time Profession. I'm not saying these men don't have anything else "on the side" but they are paid as FULL TIME Employees and get paid well at least the umpires who make it to the "show".

NFL Football Officials are Part Time and IMO with all that money in the NFL one would think that the Commissioner's Office would take a good look at the officiating and make NFL Officials a FULL TIME Position with a certain amount of schooling.

Perhaps with Full Time Officials with more training there wouldn't be a need for instant replay.

Being an Umpire myself, I sympathize with the officials in that the Giants have no-one but themselves to blame for blowing a 24 point lead. The Steeler / Titan call is a tough one to swallow especially at the professional level.

What's your view? Should NFL Officials be FULL TIME?

Pete Booth

Full-time means... ??
 

This is always a band-wagon cry after "controversial" calls. For once I'd like someone to take that statement and explain to me what they're actually proposing.

I don't think the mistakes are because officials aren't full time. And there's already more than a "certain amount of schooling". What MORE can they be doing?

Officiating mistakes are going to happen. You're going to tell me that MLB umpires are always correct? Officials in the other sports are full-time primarily because of the amount of games played.

I think the technology of replay from umpteen angles makes us notice things that were never considered in years past. There is no way the officials can sell a close call like we would do in a high school game.

Oh- and the running into the kicker call was textbook by the rules. And Cowher knows it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PeteBooth
[B]
"...a very questionable running into the kicker penalty at the end of the Steeler / Titan Game..."

What part of the running into the kicker rule do you not understand that makes you even question that call?

"...Also during the Steeler / Titan Game the officials did not know what was Challengeable or Not..."

I watched the game. I did not see the officials review an unchallengeable play! Are you basing this analysis of yours stictley on the comments of the pissed off coaches locker room comments? Or do you have some insider information?

"What's your view? Should NFL Officials be FULL TIME?"

No!




[Edited by KWH on Jan 14th, 2003 at 12:57 AM]

The stupidity of having a player report as eligible BEFORE THE GAME is probably the stupidest rule I've ever heard. That needs to be eliminated.

There was nothing wrong with the call in the Steelers game. It's a judgment call by the referee, who I personally agreed with.

MLB Umpires work 6-7 games per week, for all but 4 months of the year. They have to be full time. I don't see making NFL officials full time that big of an advantage. The truth is that the players are faster, stronger, and quicker than they have ever been. That makes it a difficult job. I think they are the best at what they do. THere's nobody soitting at home who could do the job any better.

Let's say Blum doesn't throw the running into the kicker. The Titan sideline would go ballistic screaming for the call. If the Steelers then go down the field and win, it's Fisher who's crying about how they were robbed by a critical <i>non-call</i>.

The national media would then call for full time officials. No mater what happens at that point, nobody is happy - but that's just the way life is.

If what we're going for here is for everyone to agree on all these calls, let's stop now because we'll never get there.

How does everyone feel about the so-called full timers? I don't see any stories in the media about how everyone in MLB is just pleased as punch with the strike zone and with their umpiring in general. Ask Mark Cuban about the full time NBA refs. And the piece de resistance, the NHL - hockey fans love them. But they're full timers! They must be the best!

Coaches should take a 4 week course along with the Announcers on the rules.

Look at Matt Millen he even said its a hard job when he umpired a couple pre season games.

I agree the giants game was a bad no call, but maybe Jim Fassell could have gotten to the Officials and remind them that he was an eligible receiver on that play. The flag could have come late (very late) but at least they may have gotten the call right with a reminder. Fassell needs to blame himself.

As for Bill Cohwer, stop crying Bill it was a good call and the right call.

Ron Blum, did it right.
 

We on this board normally support officials. The main concern of the naysayers is GET IT RIGHT.

Well based on that statement, Ron Blum did it right and now he is getting blasted for that too. On the challenge he stated he felt it was not challengable but would look into it further with the replay official upstairs.

Why in the hell are people still saying he is incompetent for not knowing what is challengable and what is not. The rule is open to intrepretation like many of our rules and most of what each and everyone of us works and lives by. He felt it was not challengable but was willing to make sure. Commend him for being willing to check and GET IT RIGHT.

My take on the judgement calls, they are just that, decisions the official on site has to make spur of the moment with his knowledge of the rules and their applicability. Well done, crews.

Shawn

I hear the "full-time" argument a lot, but I just don't think it would lead to much improvement.

The only way you get better at officiating is by seeing more snaps, and by the time you get to the NFL, you've seen plenty of those. The officials already study film and the rules during the week, and the scrutiny officials have been under in the NFL postseason have nothing to do with knowledge of the rules; most complaints I've heard have been for judgment calls, which aren't going to change with more study.

Also, it might be hard to get/keep officials if they went full time. NFL officials are already under a lot of scrutiny and can be out of a job quickly if they don't rank well. The lack of job security would certainly make anyone think twice about quitting their real job to officiate full time. Heck, you might be hard-pressed to find someone who *wants* to officiate full-time. I enjoy officating, but I can't imagine doing it or working on it every day; it's fun, but not as rewarding to me as a real career.

I am a professional with relatively high yearly earnings. I make 20 times more at my profession each year than I do officiating HS and college baseball and football. But on any given day, I'd rather be officiating a game than working at my profession. While I enjoy baseball, football is my passion and I find the rules much more difficult and the mechanics more demanding. Knowing that football officiating is a second career is an incentive to improve and advance. I hope that aspect never changes. In my opinion, the officials in professional and college football are just as good as their counterparts in professional and college baseball, even though officiating is not their main careers.

As for the missed PI call in Giants-Niners game, we all know how difficult it is to officiate a broken play. The deep officials had to bust down to the goal line to cover the receivers, and the line officials had neutral-zone responsibilities, then had to bust downfield when the ball crossed the neutral zone. It's not hard to see how no one got a good look at the defender's take-down. The mechanics changes the front office made the next day should avoid future like no-calls. The entire crew likely got dinged out of the other playoff games, and their entire season is tainted. While football officiating is not a full-time avocation, it certainly is a demanding one!

I do not think full time would make much of a difference. Judgement calls will always be there but I do think at the end of a close game where a call could determine the outcome of a game, it should be reviewed before calling the game. My main example is the Giants game. The player did what he was supposed to and that is report eligible. The official "thought" he was ineligible. With a review by the officials they would have determined him as eligible and the Giants would have had another opportunity. In reality, that call may cost players and coaches their jobs and it's a call that could have been avoided.

With the speed of the game I think the NFL officials do one heck of a job. There are some awfully good calls made but unfortunately good calls do not get the press that bad ones do.

Not to change the subject too much, but does anyone besides me think that although the play in the Giants/49ers game was definitely too close to call uncatchable, for the purposes of not throwing a DPI flag for a reason, rather than by default, but that there was absolutely no chance that the receiver would have caught the pass, interference or not? Understandibly, it would still have to be called, but karmically, it seems like the correct end result.

I am not a fan of either team, so I think that I am fairly unbiased, and the player seemed to get tripped up on the turf or his own feet, as he turned, and eventually overturned, past the area where the pass landed, BEFORE he was contacted by the defender. The contact LOOKED worse than it was, because the defender grabbed his collar very clearly, but with the benefit of slow motion and a better angle, it looked as if the offensive player would have fallen on his back on his own, unable to react back towards the ball with any chance to make a catch, let alone a catch that he could have advanced to the goal line.


As for the Titans/Steelers game, I had no problem with the running into the kicker call, it had to be done, and Nedney DID do a great acting job. It even looked convincing enough for me in slow motion. However, as much as I appreciate the effort to get it right, I do think that a playoff white hat in the NFL should know if a play is eligible to be reviewed. I thought it looked and sounded bad when he sort of stuttered and stammered through the explanation of what he was doing, and why he had to call upstairs for help.


[Edited by 4 Sport Official on Jan 14th, 2003 at 04:09 PM]

It was a bad call because it was clearly a questionable call and it was HUGE in deciding the outcome of the game.

Here is the rule to support my statement...NFHS Rule 9-4-4c.

A defensive player shall neither run into the kicker nor holder, which is contact that displaces the kicker or holder without roughing; nor block, tackle or charge into the kicker of a scrimmage kick, or the place-kick holder, other than when:

c. Contact is slight and is partially caused by movement of the kicker.

I applaud the honesty of the official in the Pit-Ten game.

Not sure how many exceptions to the NFL rule book and the additional stuff regarding what is and isn't reviewable, but HE GOT IT RIGHT!

If he didn't, the rest of the world would have been complaining "why didn't he ask for help if he didn't know?"

Derock, questionable to us. IN HIS JUDGEMENT, he saw a foul. You can disagree because it was a judgement call (and you've seen multiple replays from many angles). It (like every call and non-call) had an effect on the game, but not as much as the previous 60+ plays and coaching decisions.

Big D, are you crossing over to the other side???? You are beginning to sound like a fan!

Go read the NFL book, Derock. It's quite specific regarding what constitutes running into the kicker. It was absolutely by the book. It's under Conduct of Players. I don't have it with me at home, but the supplements (there are 4) further clarify what is and what is not running into / roughing the kicker.

Here it is -

Rule 12 – Article 6


No defensive player may run into or rough a kicker who kicks from behind his line unless such contact:

a) Is incidental to and after he has touched the kick in flight
b) Is caused by the kicker’s own motions
c) Occurs during a quick kick
d) Occurs during a kick or after a run behind the line
e) Occurs after the kicker recovers a loose ball on the ground or
f) Is caused because a defender is blocked into the kicker

Supplemental Notes –

1) Avoiding the kicker is the primary responsibility of the defensive players if they do not touch the kick
2) Any contact with the kicker by a single defensive player who has not touched the kick is running into the kicker
3) Any unnecessary roughness committed by the defensive players is roughing the kicker. Severity of contact and potential for injury are to be considered
4) When two defensive players are making a bona fide attempt to block a kick from scrimmage (punt, drop kick, and/or place kick) and one of them runs into the kicker after the kick has left the kicker’s foot at the same instant the second player blocks the kick, the foul for running into the kicker shall not be enforced, unless in the judgment of the referee, the player running into the kicker was clearly the direct cause of the kick being blocked.
5) If in the judgment of the referee any of the above action is innecessary roughness, the penalty for roughing the kickershall be enforced from the previous spot as a foul during the kick.

Nothing in there about 'unless its the playoffs and its a really big play and the kicker missed and somebody might get really mad and its in OT...'


[Edited by ABoselli on Jan 15th, 2003 at 09:26 AM]

Clearly a questionable call? I disagree.

More importantly, why is a guy who supposedly did not own/use a rule book quoting Fed rules, in reference to a situation in an NFL game?

Kickers are highly-paid specialists at the NFL level, and are afforded an even higher level of protection.

Aboselli, game sense or feel for the game. Does these terms mean "anything" in officiating football?

Do you do hockey, too?
 

Derock-

It sounds like you're the type that changes the rules as the game goes along. Like in the NHL where nothing is called in the third period and players get away with anything short of murder.

Derock,

Are you off the medicine again? :)

We thought we had you gaining in stature around the end of December and early January, but it appears that you've fallen off the "rules" wagon again into that ugly puddle of "game non-sense".

I'll pray for you!!

What does how much kickers make have to do with anything???

More importantly, Nedney himself admitted that his "acting" might land him a role in Hollywood (or something to that effect) which leads me to believe that even Nedney didn't in all honesty believe he deserved the call.

The call was definitely a "questionable" call. If it wasn't questionable, why is the play under such scrutiny???

What I saw was slight contact not enough to warrant a flag under any situation especially at this critical point in the game. As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement". When you make this call in this situation, you automatically give a team an edge.

The Titans gained an advantageous call that decided the game on a questionable foul. This is a bad call--should not have been made. Game sense, GET SOME!!!!

<i>Aboselli, game sense or feel for the game. Does these terms mean "anything" in officiating football?</i>

Do you mean '<b>Do</b> these terms mean anything in officiating football'?

I get the feeling that because it was in OT, you think it shouldn't be called. Do we then suspend the calling of fouls near the end of games and in OT? Is this what you mean by 'feel for the game'? So the offended team should just bite the bullet because we should be so afraid of calling anything that players can just do whatever they want?

Having an effect on the kick is immaterial - that's not the intent of the rule. The intent is to get players to lay off the kicker. They put the running into part so they could penalize less severe infractions without having to impose 15 yards and a first down. That's what happened here.

Maybe in your 45 minute youth games, you do things a bit different. Enforce the rules you can manage to remember, misapply those you can't etc etc.

It comes down to having some stones in that situation and Blum has got an elephant sized brass pair as far as I'm concerned.

Ok Derock thats it, I now know youre a complete fool and should not be on a football field.

Derock if this call isn't made then that official shouldn't be in the NFL, hell even a youth ball official like yourself should call that every time. it doesn't matter if the games on the line or not.

oh and Derock you can not hit the kicker if hes just standing there either.
Now was this a good acting job? maybe but its still a penalty.

Derock you do not have to kill the kicker to draw a flag for running into the kicker or even roughing the kicker. The kicker is afforded safety after he kicks the ball you can not hit him. Hell even Bill Cohwer changed his mind about the call, now hes saying he was pissed that he didn't get the time out in time.

[/B][/QUOTE]
As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".

Hey, Rock.

As an official, you automatically assume the role of potentially making a call that could have an impact on the game. That's what officials do! We enforce the rules! Although we use game sense, we don't duck tough calls by hiding behind a "game sense curtain" and we surely don't back away from calling fouls involving player safety.

Derock, maybe we should revamp officiating and take a poll of the fans to see if a foul should be called because we shouldn't throw a flag unless it is "blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes". And not to use "judgement" would rewrite the rule books as roughing the kicker is a judgement call!

Maybe you can teach me something. When is it OK not to throw a flag (in youth ball) when the foul is a safety issue? I'm sure you're game sense will kick in soon...

p.s. Derock, why do you lead with your chin????

As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".

Hey, Rock.

As an official, you automatically assume the role of potentially making a call that could have an impact on the game. That's what officials do! We enforce the rules! Although we use game sense, we don't duck tough calls by hiding behind a "game sense curtain" and we surely don't back away from calling fouls involving player safety.

Derock, maybe we should revamp officiating and take a poll of the fans to see if a foul should be called because we shouldn't throw a flag unless it is "blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes". And not to use "judgement" would rewrite the rule books as roughing the kicker is a judgement call!

Maybe you can teach me something. When is it OK not to throw a flag (in youth ball) when the foul is a safety issue? I'm sure you're game sense will kick in soon...

p.s. Derock, why do you lead with your chin???? [/B][/QUOTE]

A safety issue??? Running into the kicker is a safety issue but Nedney's safety was at NO time at risk. Safety is of no concern when there is slight contact. If Nedney doesn't purposely spin and fall, would the R still have thrown his flag? Probably not.

Come on fellas, I can't be the only person who see this as a bad call. Get your heads out of the rule book for a second and use some common sense. Nedney put on an act of spinning and falling intentionally to draw the flag. You don't have to know the rules to see that was an act. If Nedney does not put on his act, the contact would not be severe enough to displace the kicker or be a safety issue. The defender had an angle for the ball and was going for the ball--NOT Nedney. He misses the ball, Nedney misses the field goal and receives slight contact. Running into the kicker would be a direct line into the kicker--NOT what we saw.

Nedney's "act" was dishonest and misleading. However, I don't fault Nedney. It is the official's responsibility to be able to see that this "act" is a desperate attempt to draw (or sucker) the R into making a call.

When you're in a close game between two competitive teams that could go either way, it is often 1 play that swings the advantage in the other teams favor. The Titans gained an advantage AND the win from the running into the kicker call.

Officials should have very little, if any, influence on the outcome of the game. This game will be remembered more for that call than the game winning field goal. Bad call.

Yeah, he has some stones alright--one is in his head.

It's a bad call, should not have been made, and Blum should apologize to the Steelers organization for allowing Nedney's act to bait him into a call. The fact that Blum is a professional doesn't mean he doesn't makes (or is that make since you are correcting my grammar) mistakes. I'm sure Blum probably wish he could take the call back.

<i>I'm sure Blum probably wish<b>es</b> he could take the call back.</i>

I think we can safely place your grammar and spelling in the same spot as we have already placed your judgement and knowledge. In a big drawer marked "LACKING".

A few months ago, your big chest puffer was "I'm right because I'm wearing the stripes!". I guess your calls are beyond reproach but an 18 year NFL vets are easily dismissed. He must not have any game sense either.

The fact that you have stayed just in youths confirms there is a God.

NFL A.R. (Approved Ruling) 12.15
 

2001 NFL Playing Rules
NFL Rule 12, Section 2, Article 6, Page 81
A.R.(Approved Ruling) 12.15
Fourth-and-12 on B30. On a field goal attempt which is not good, reciever B1 runs into the kicker without touching the ball.
RULING: A's ball fourth-and-7 on B25. Running into the kicker. If the field goal had been good, no penalty would be enforced on the succeeding kickof, since it was not a personal foul.

Now,
AB has provided the NFL rule,
I have provided the NFL approved ruling,
Blum made the call based on the NFL rule, NFL approved ruling, 18 years of NFL experiance, Game Sense, Common Sense, not to mention the fact that the reciever, (who had not touched the kick), contacted the kicker while the kicker had not completed his act of kicking the ball.

I am sure a lot of things went through Blums mind just before he threw the flag.
I am postive however that he did not ask himself "I wonder what DeRock would do in this situation?" If he had he would have had thoughts like;
1) "Nedney's "act" was dishonest and misleading."
2) Is this foul "blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".
3) "Nedney put on an act of spinning and falling intentionally to draw the flag."
4) "Running into the kicker would be a direct line into the kicker--NOT what we saw."
5) I wonder what the NFHS rules say to do in this situation?

No DeRock, I'm fairly comfortable that none of your "brainfarts" passed threw Blums mind prior him throwing the flag.
On the contrary, I believe Blum watched the all the action around the kicker, saw the contact, and threw the correct flag.
Good, and correct, call!

I am also conviced that once again you have made a fool of yourself!

Two questions for you DeRock"
1) What does the "1986" in DeRock1986 stand for? The year you were born?
2) How many field goals do you see each year in your 45 minute "PEE WEE", "BANTOM", and "HERD BALL" games?

Derock since when do you have to run directly into the kicker to draw a foul?

Derock you can't be this dumb, can you?

Derock Needley was playing to the cameras when he said he would make a good actor in hollywood, that was acting.

Derock the defender dove and hit the kicker thats called running/roughing the kicker whichever you think the penalty should be. Its not running directly into the kicker. Needley was going down no mater what, he just played into it a little more and it worked. Needley did not take any steps like Cohwer said, he kicked came down on both feet and was hit. easy call.

Other than the fact that owners don't want skill players getting hurt and the fact that these owners and coaches are all on the rules committee? I guess very little unless you are part of the rules commitee.



I used to play soccer and I'd act to accentuate a foul. Usually there was still a foul, I just made it look worse than what it was. May have been the same thing here.




Because those scrutinizing the call were on the losing end and/or don't know the rule. Same thing happened with the OS/UM NCAA BCS game and the PI call.



Other times this could be said:

"He only slightly grabbed the facemask."
"He didn't trip him with his WHOLE leg. He just used his shin."
"I didn't rough the QB/Snapper THAT bad."
"I didn't strike him in the head THAT hard."

A foul is still a foul no matter when it happens in a game. How many different ways must this be said? The NFL rule has been quoted SEVERAL times.

Actions of players decide games. The player who slid into Nedney forced Mr. Blum to make a decision. Had he NOT slid into Nedney, this would not be an issue.

Genuine Derock 101. So before we throw a flag, we have to get the approval of everyone? Please stay in Pee-wee ball. I heard Coach "JimNazium" wants more officials like you. :D



But the team that fouled has to be penalized. That's what the rules are for. SAFETY was an issue here.

I trust Mr. Blum's judgment AND his game sense. You don't just waltz onto an NFL field without it.

Mr. Blum, if you read this, will you be my mentor?

Derock,

you would get killed officiating a High School or college game with your game sense tactics.

Were talking NFL here not youth league where maybe(and thats a big maybe)(im calling it in any level game) you let this running into the kicker go. Derock yes most of us officials in here are by the book, which is why they have a rule book. This rule was changed a couple years back im sure you didn't even know that). like I have said before Derock the kicker is aforded the same amount of time after his kick as you would give a Qb after his throw. If you hit him you get a flag. This wasn't a bump, it took the kicker down, wether he acted or not. I was watching the game and as soon as I saw it I said here comes a flag. Sure enough the flag came out. GREAT CALL. Derock for your imformation, hell Derock even the Steelers owner said it was a penalty.

Derock, did you ever play football? im sure if you did you would know you can't dive into a kicker feet.

Was Cowher the only guy besides Blum in the stadium not watching the ball's flight? He wants us to believe he had his eye on the kicker even after the kick left his foot - that's how he got such a good view of the entire play?

Liar.

Striing the pot a little
 

Yet another article.

http://www.sportscurmudgeon.com/topi...l_refs_ft.html

http://<br /> <a href="http://www.p....asp</a><br />

Can anyone with excellent grammar skills count the number of errors in this column?






[Edited by mikesears on Jan 16th, 2003 at 12:55 PM]

maybe DEROCK is Bill Cohwer?

The NFL game is so fast and fierce i don't believe being full time would have any affect on the the officials performance. Let's face it the NFL officials are highly scrutinized now with the league office and all the weekly performance ratings, and with all the calls being made the percentage of missed calls is quite low. It's a human game being played and officiated by humans, God only made one perfect Human and i don't think he was an official. Go out there prepared with knowledge of the rules and mechanics and HAVE FUN. I Say Part Time is Fine

All,

The real question is how does this effect us at the High School level? I think the instant replays and constant "showing -up" of the officals by coaches and TV commentators ultimately undermines all our creditablity.
"If the pro's can never get it right these guys(us)must really be bad!" That's why I cringe everytime I see the red challenge flag. I find myself rooting for no overturn rather than for my team!

Just my two cents.

Refburn

All,
here's my two cents...or better yet, here's my penny with a whole in it. Aboselli a.k.a teacher, is that spelled "whole" or "hole"???

Most of you sound like your brain is programmed with football rules. The only problem with being programmed is your brain can only function according to the rules programmed in your brain. In other words, you can't think. A programmed official knows only the rules. A thinking official knows the rules AND the purpose behind the rules. A programmed official calls all rule violations. A thinking official calls all rule violations that effect the game.

I agree that contact (slight) was made and by rule and definition the defender ran into the kicker. Now here is where the thinking comes in...contact was slight, partially caused by Nedney's movement. Nedney does his act to give the appearance of greater contact than initiated. Running into the kicker rule is to protect the kicker (safety) however a kicker may try to take advantage of this rule by trying to draw contact OR pretending to receive contact. As a thinking official, I am going to be looking for both to protect Nedney and to make sure I don't unfairly penalize the defense on a technicality (contact was made) that was not even a safety issue. There was no way Nedney could have been harmed from the contact he received. The reason Nedney fell to the ground is to give the appearance that he could have been seriously hurt but in reality HE WAS PRETENDING therefore his safety was not an issue.

Isn't safety the whole purpose behind this rule? If so, then what sense does it make to call it when safety is not an issue???

First of all, the kicker took HIMSELF down. There is a difference and you should be able to tell the difference.

Second, Yes I did play football which is why I know the difference from running into a kicker and making contact with the kicker.

<i>A thinking official knows the rules AND the purpose behind the rules</i>

You've proven time and again, you know neither.

And yes, your spelling, grammar and usage suck, which is a detriment in a forum that is completely written. After someone makes many moronic statements, one must assume that person is indeed a moron.

What part of YOU CANNOT CONTACT THE KICKER do you not understand. Maybe the coach should be all over his player who had no chance at all of a block and took 2 more steps after the kick was gone. Don't put yourself in that posistion and then there will be a no call.