My turn.

2nd and 10 @ A-35. A1 takes snap and rolls out bend the line of scrimmage. He throws a legal forward pass to A2 who catches the pass beyond the LOS. While the pass is in the air, B1 holds A3 who was faking a screen pass at the A30. A2 then throws a backward pass to A1 who is behind the LOS. A1 now sees receiver A4 all alone at the B45 thanks to the A coach who is on the field to point out how wide open the receiver is. A1 completes the pass to A4. Oh, by the way, lineman A5 is 10 yards past the LOS on B's side. A4 immediately fumbles the ball.

B2 picks up the ball and begins to run being sure to grab, but not twist A4's face mask as he tries to stiff arm him at the B25. In order to get more leverage, B2 dedides to use both hands on A4's face mask and fumbles the ball. A4 regains conciousness and picks up the ball and waltzes into the endzone unmolested for the touchdown.

As he prances into the endzone, A4 taunts cornerback B2 and spikes the ball. Frustated by the "two handed, double facemask twist", the PA announcer calls the B team a bunch of #@^*%"#! losers and goes on to invite all of A's fans to BA the B team. (It's unimportant to the play whether or not the crowd complied!)

There was more, but I thought this was enough.

What's the call? Who's got the ball? How do we enforce the fouls? YOU, MAKE THE CALL!!!!

Please Explain...
 

BA the B team??

How about a "do-over"?

Let me get some Advil and I'll be right back. (First thing I know I'd do is tell the AD that Derock is not allowed to be the PA announcer anymore).

AB, lol. Pass the Advil!!

Andrew, like the rule book, I used A as the offense and B as the defense. Sorry to confuse.

I get the A's and B's...
 

When you said the PA announcer "goes on to invite all of A's fans to BA the B team," I got confused.

Whoa, you talk about complex. There are so many flags on this one that it will take a while to resolve.

Here's my call...
There are multiple off-setting penalties against A and B. There is no touch down on the play since B excepts the illegal forward pass by A1. 10 yard penalty from the spot of the pass (???) and a loss of down (3rd and ???).

In addition, I have a dead-ball unsportsmanlike on the PA announcer. The PA announcer must be replaced or the PA system must be turned off. Since the PA announcer is a non-player, I would not penalize A but instead just prohibit the PA announcer from calling the remainder of the game.

What illegal pass? Anyway....

The hold by B1 and the illegal downfield by A5 (stupid lineman) offset. B2's facemask is accepted by A and this moves A up to the 50. Then there are two USC's on A, one for the coach and the next for the taunt/spike, which carry 15 per. Now we're back at the A20, 1st and 10.

The PA announcer has been banned from all further duties and "Kumbaya" will now be played over the PA softly in the background to soothe the angry onlookers.

The only thing I'm unsure of myself on is the facemask being enforced. I'm torn between making that part of the offsetting fouls and letting it stand and be enforced.

What's the call? Who's got the ball? How do we enforce the fouls? YOU, MAKE THE CALL!!!! [/B][/QUOTE]



“2nd and 10 @ A-35. A1 takes snap and rolls out bend the line of scrimmage. He throws a legal forward pass to A2 who catches the pass beyond the LOS. While the pass is in the air, B1 holds A3 who was faking a screen pass at the A30”.

At this point we have a holding foul on B during a loose ball play. When A2 caught the pass the play changes to a running play.
(A down can have a loose ball play, one or more running plays, or a loose ball play followed by one or more running plays .If the down has loose ball play, there will be only one of them, and it must occur in the beginning of the down.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

“A2 then throws a backward pass to A1 who is behind the LOS.”
(Bag the end of related run)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“A1 now sees receiver A4 all alone at the B45 thanks to the A coach who is on the field to point out how wide open the receiver is. A1 completes the pass to A4”.

A1’s pass is legal as A may throw any amount of passes during the down as long as they are thrown from behind his LOS and before any change of possession. I feel A’s coach is guilty of illegal participation for being on the field and influencing the play. I know I’ll probably get eaten alive for this but for some reason I thinking the feds say to go IP and enforce it dead ball from the seceding spot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Oh, by the way, lineman A5 is 10 yards past the LOS on B's side”.

Now we have A’s second foul for ineligible lineman down field
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“A4 immediately fumbles the ball.”
(Bag the end of related run, good thing I carry two 8^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

”B2 picks up the ball and begins to run being sure to grab, but not twist A4's face mask as he tries to stiff arm him at the B25.”

Second B foul 5 yard facemask

“In order to get more leverage, B2 decides to use both hands on A4's face mask and fumbles the ball.”
LOL I better start carrying three bags, I hate tossing my hat and I’m out of flags

“A4 regains consciousness and picks up the ball and waltzes into the end zone unmolested for the touchdown. As he prances into the end zone, A4 taunts cornerback B2 and spikes the ball.”

Glad to see he’s feeling better, but he won’t for long. I’m almost of mind to bang him twice for the taunt and the spike and ship him home. But I’ll be nice and combine them for one dead ball USC.

“Frustrated by the "two handed, double facemask twist", the PA announcer calls the B team a bunch of #@^*%"#! Losers and goes on to invite all of A's fan to BA the B team. (It's unimportant to the play whether or not the crowd complied!)”

Not much we can do here except crew-stalk the A$$-hole to his car after the game and give him a wedgie .this is a game management issue and should be reported to the proper league or school authority .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So we got multiple double fouls that offset. We’re going to replay the down after marching off 30 yards for both of A’s dead ball fouls.

What do you think; I probably kicked this all to hell, but who in the world would argue? I’m sure every one would be happy to have someone else unscramble this mess 8^)
BTW JMN, I’ve now got a splitting head ache.

game over

ok lets try this.. foorget about the game over part I was laughing so hard at this I got a headache. Derock you need work Pal.



first of all, why in his right mind(not saying he is in his right mind) would anyone let go of a ball to use both hands on a face mask for more leverage?(this ones a little hard to believe)

second, when did A4 lose conciousness to regain it and pick up the fumble and run for teh TD?



now on to the enfoecements.

im taking this to be NFHS rules since we had two forward passes.

so we have a DPI on B1 not a hold. 15 yards automatic 1st down.
an inel receiver down field on A5. 5 yards LOD

These penalties offset each other.

then we have a 15 yard USC on the A coach for being on the field, followed by a face mask on B2(grab is 15 yards he doesn't have to twist, the two handed face mask doesn't matter its only 1 penalty here)

so we offset the USC and the facemask(both live ball penalties)

now we have A4 for a dead ball USC and then a dead ball USC on the PA announcer. ( both 15 yarders)
we go back to the LOS and mark off 30 yards. since were outside the 30 we don't go half the distance. 2nd and 40 from the 5 yard line.


Now heres the kicker.... the coach is gone "BYE BYE" because he is responsible for the PA announcer( so this will be the coaches 2nd USC) and his actions. BYE BYE PA announcer also.



How'd I do?????

someone send me spell check please LOL

disregard my half the distance comment also? Dummy I am

but still mark of 30 yards

2nd and 40 from the 5yard line

Double-dose of advil!
 

Flag down. Holding by the defense during a loose ball play. Basic spot right now is the previous spot, the A-35.

Nothing illegal about this.

You have unsportsmanlike conduct on the team A coach for being on the field.

Legal. Pass was thrown behind the N.Z. It is the only requirement.

Flag down for ineligible down field. I'm thinking, "Dang-it, I knew I should have been carrying that second flag!"

As of this point, we have double-fouls.

Another flag down. I'm now done to my BVD's. Let's hope their isn't another foul and that it is a warm day (or that another official was covering the play).

Sounds flagrant! Flag and GET THE # so he can be ejected.

Results of the play. Touchdown for team A. However, A4 will not be allowed back into the game because it was determined that he was unconcious :D

Yet more yellow down for the U.C. At this point, there is more laundry on the ground than some male IU student's dorm room floor.

Game over. Get out of Dodge before we even try to sort this out.


Without the last action of the PA announcer, this is what would happen (after I was able to redress the crew).

We have double fouls, the down would be replayed. All of the live-ball fouls would cancel each other out, except B2 would be ejected for his flagrant face mask foul. We then penalize the UC fouls as dead-ball fouls and in the order of occurence. Penalize team A coach for his U.C. 15 yards back to the A-20. Penalize Team A another 15 yards for a4's taunt/spike. Half the distance to the A-10. I'm not sure of down and distance after penalty but the ball would be on the A-10 yardline, right?

Would it be 2/35 at the A-10? Or 1/10 at the A-10? I'm thinking 2/35.

How is there DPI behind the LOS?

Even though the USC by the coach happened during the live ball, those are enforced as dead ball penalties in order of their occurrence.

All that live ball stuff is going to "offset" and NONE of it will be enforced.

Rule 10-2-1: It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or non-players, during the same live-ball period.

It does not matter how many live-ball fouls each team commits. Team A could commit 10 fouls and team B could commit a single foul and the only result is that the down will be replayed.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is ALWAYS penalized as a dead-ball foul from the succeeding spot (even if it occurs during a live-ball). Rule 10-4-4a

That's what I was unsure of - so skip the part of my answer where I enforced the facemask, but keep the rest.

my bad on the USC and the hold the fake screen pass was behind the LOS,(im thinking it was on B's 30) and thats where the hold was.

HSWH,
If a player is just grasping an opponent's facemask isn’t that just a 5 yarder ? To bump it to a 15er doesn’t the player have to be grasping and twisting, turning or pulling?

Lets make this short and quick. All live ball fouls become a double foul, replay the down. All USC's enforced in order of occurance. I just can't go back and half the distance 2x to com up with the exact yardline but the down remains the same.

Exactly! I wholeheartedly concur 2/35 at the 10.

1st 15-yard penalty takes Team A back to the 20. The 2nd 15-yard penalty takes Team A half the distance to their own 10. Team A is penalized 25 yards, making it 2/35 from the 10.

I guess a grab can be your judgement, on this play B not only grabbed he then dropped the ball(for some crazy reason ) and twisted the face mask with both hands

Guys, I've been rolling on the floor reading your responses. Great creativity in explaining your rulings.

I would enforce it as Mike Sears did (see copy below) except that I added my two cents after his repost.

We have double fouls, the down would be replayed. All of the live-ball fouls would cancel each other out, except B2 would be ejected for his flagrant face mask foul. We then penalize the UC fouls as dead-ball fouls and in the order of occurence. Penalize team A coach for his U.C. 15 yards back to the A-20. Penalize Team A another 15 yards for a4's taunt/spike. Half the distance to the A-10. I'm not sure of down and distance after penalty but the ball would be on the A-10 yardline, right?

Would it be 2/35 at the A-10? Or 1/10 at the A-10? I'm thinking 2/35.
__________________
Mike Sears


Mike, my answer is to replay the down 2nd and 40 from the A5. To get here, I took your UC enforcements and added the PA announcer to it to go another 1/2 the distance from the A10 to the A5. Line to gain is still the A45. (Oh, and Mike, you may need to invest in some black and white striped BVD's for such plays):)

And HSWH is right. You should eject the coach for his second UC (since technically he's responsible for the announcer). I would probably conveniently forget this ejection.

Sorry to move us from gridiron war stories to Fantasy Island, but this was a fun one to sort out. Good job.

So after this big headache I got, my mark offs were at least right.

I did say 2nd and 40 from the 5yard line.

my penalties were wrong. well at least I didn't hurt the teams . hahhahahahha

I say game over - they've made a travesty of the game, and I will not sit idly by while the game I love is made a travesty of! Rule 3-6-3 (or is it 6-3-6?) The referee has the discretion to do whatever he pleases. Both teams forfeit! Everybody is thrown out!

Now let's get something to eat.

It's on AB
 

:) :) PIZZA AND BEER ON BOSELLI!! :) :)

Now you're talking Aboselli! Rule 3-6-3 (the Derock rule). That's what I've been saying all along.

This is a tough one. Double foul, yes. But you had two change of possessions following a double foul which changes everything, NFHS 10-2-1b,c.

You have to work your way back to sort it out and my final result is a 5-yard penalty against A for the ineligible downfield before unsportsmanlikes.

The way I got there was.

1) Following the last change of possession, A scores. In order to keep the ball A must decline the facemask on B. That takes us back to the previous change of possession with the ball in possession of A. Now A to keep the ball must decline the holding penalty by B. But that leaves B with a choice of accepting the ineligible downfield and, of course, B will in order to stop the score.

2) Result of the aforementioned is 2 and 15 at A's 30. Then the unsportsmanlike against A's coach is enforced, 15 yards 2 and 30 at A's 15.

3) The announcer is technically not covered by either 9-5 or 9-8 the unsportsmanlike sections as 9-5 covers players acts and 9-8 covers coaches, substitutes, trainers and other team attendants. But enter rule 9-9-1 which gives the referee discretion to enforce an equitable penalty including awarding a score.

Given this wide latitude, I personally would penalize team A fifteen yards, half-the-distance in this case, and remove the announcer from the booth before play can continue.

My final result, A's ball, 2nd and 22 and one-half from A's 7 and one-half.

Then again, declaring a double foul and enforcing the unsportsmanlike would save a lot of time because my enforcement would require the next hour trying to get it through the coaches' heads about spots and changes of possession.

I don't believe A is entitled to keep the ball, have their live ball penalty enforced and decline B's penalty as A fouled before the final change of possession. They'll keep the ball but after the USC's are walked off only. The two changes of possession aren't consequential in terms of the clean hands rule because A ends up with the ball but they fouled before the first COP. If they had fouled after the final change only, then they would get to decline B's foul(s)and keep the ball after the enforcement of their penalty no matter how many COP's there are.

I think you enforce the USC's in order of their occurence as dead ball penalties (by rule) and replay the down.