Derock,

I'm not sure what position you hold on the play about tackling the pitchman and I'm not trying to start another debate on the play. I am simply hoping you are willing to learn.

Thought I would search the casebook for a play where the defense tackles a player who is not a runner and I found one. Here is the play:

Sit 9.2.3C
QB A1 drops back 15 yards and throws a legal forward pass intended for A2, who is 5 yards behind the neutral zone (My Note: We can't have P.I.). Before the pass reaches A2; (a) B1 tackles A2; or (b) B1 blocks A2.

Ruling:
In (a), tackling A2 is a foul,as it is a form of holding (emphasis mine). Defensive players are prohibited from grasping an opponent other than the runner . . . . (b) the Contact by B1 is not pass interference and, if the block itself is legal, there is no infraction (7-5-10).

Not exactly the play that was discussed earlier, but pretty close in principle. Do you still believe that is it okay to tackle a pitchman on an option play? I say, the defense can legally block the pitchman to tie him up, but they may not tackle him.

What say you on this?

Mike-

You missed it in another thread. Derock has unfortunately retired.

Just hoping to educate him before the next season starts. I am making a last ditched effort to convert him to the good side. Without this forum, I'd still be working football games like ....., well...... , um..... by the seat of my pants with a limited knowledge of the rules. This place is a tremendous asset to anyone wanting to LEARN. If we don't want to learn, we have no business here.

:)

Mike, you're going to lure him into pulling a Cris Carter with your siren song of mechanics and sound rules knowledge.

Going fishin' :D

BTW, I don't understand the Chris Carter reference. Did something happen in a recent game? I was reading USA Today earlier and someone else ripped on him saying something like, "Paging Chris Carter, paging Chris Carter. Please report to Coach Wandstadts (sp???) office..... and bring your playbook."

He retired last year and then unretired to play for the Dolphins. Derock has officially retired - lets let sleeping dogs lie.

I say what I call will certainly vary from what most of you may call.

First off, the situation as you described is a pass situation and I agree that you have a holding.

However, the option play/video clip was a running play and in my view should be looked at a little differently.

By the rules of holding and definition of a runner or pretending to be a runner, you could make a very good case for holding on B if he tackles the pitchman without the ball. I guess it all comes down to, in the judgement of the official, if the pitchman is pretending to receive the ball or be a runner. The actions of the pitchman will dictate how this call is made or not made.

However, my call and stand on this is the best call is no call. Why no call? Because I, personally, do not see tackling a running back before he takes the handoff as a foul but instead an excellent play by the defense. I have seen this play happen too many times in games where the running back gets tackled before the handoff or pitch--and there were no flags (doesn't mean I'm right or even these officials were right--just an observation). The play was considered a great play by the defense or a missed block by the offense depending which side you asked.

One more thing....
making the right call here also has a lot to do with the official's ability to recognize what is happening. In other words, the official should see that this is an option and anticipate a pitch to the pitchman. Thats what the defender did which is why he tackled him.

Which is why its a foul.

A similar question was posed in Jerry Markbreit's column this week. On whether or not a penalty for holding would be called, Jerry states that "an effort to appear to be in possession of the ball is the determining factor." In other words- if he's not pretending to have the ball (i.e. pretending to be the runner) then tackling him is a penalty for holding.

Jerry's column (mostly focusing on NFL rules) can be seen at chicagosports.com

You were right.... let sleeping dogs lie.