Scrimmage Kick Play

[ABoselli]

4th down and 11 at the 50, K kicks the ball away, short kick that is muffed by R1 and rolls back behind the original LOS where it is picked up by K1 who runs to the R48 and proceeds to complete a forward pass to K2 at the R38 and is tackled there. K3 and K4 are standing at the R45 when the pass is completed as they have gone downfield to cover the kick.

Who's ball, were there any fouls, if so, what and what are the offended team's options if any fouls have occurred?

[Theisey]

I'll give you the quick NCAA answer as the NFHS answer will be no where near the same (but is not that difficult to figure out).

NCAA: Ball dead as soon as A1 (or K1) recovers the ball. 1'st an 10 for Team-A

[James Neil]

I’m going to try and walk through this. Don’t have my book with me so please be gentile with me if I get out of bounds. This is for NF

“4th down and 11 at the 50, K kicks the ball away, short kick that is muffed by R1”
A muff is not possession, the kick has not ended.
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“And rolls back behind the original LOS where it is picked up by K1 who runs to the R48”
No problem here as K can legally advance the ball because the recovery was behind the line of scrimmage
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“And proceeds to complete a forward pass to K2 at the R38 and is tackled there”
Now we have a problem. K1 was beyond his LOS when he passed the ball. This is an illegal forward pass.
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. K3 and K4 are standing at the R45 when the pass is completed as they have gone downfield to cover the kick.
I’m going to assume you mean K3 and K4 are linemen with ineligible numbers. I’m also assuming you tossed this in to try to confuse me (which isn’t too hard to do LOL 8^). this could be ineligible down field if this was a legal forward pass. But in this play, no foul.

Best thing for R to do is accept the penalty for the illegal forward pass. This foul is enforced from the end of K1’s run and also carries a loss of down. Because it was 4th down the ball turns over making it R 1/10 @ R-43 clock on the snap.
If for some reason R declines this foul (^8 they might have a cretin ref who would make them if they were way ahead on points 8^) K 1/10 R-38 clock on the ready.
My enforcement being correct hinges on my intact memory (might have gotten damaged last night) and this foul actually carrying a loss of down provision

[DrMooreReferee]

Ok, here's what I think. The ball was "muffed" and not possessed. Therefore, you cannot advance a muff. I think that the official should blow the play dead at the spot where K recovers the muff. And the ball belongs to K, 1st and 10. This is of course assuming that the ball did cross the neutral zone on the kick.

Now, if the ball was possessed and then fumbled rather than muffed, a whole different story. The play would NOT be blown dead when K recovered the fumble. Furthermore, I think there should be a foul for an illegal forward pass when K chunks it downfield. You can't throw a FORWARD pass after a change of possession. So, in that scenario the players who went downfield to cover the kick are of no consequence. They just happen to be there. The ruling here would be that K will keep the ball after being penalized for the illegal forward pass, 5 yards. The loss of down part of this penalty would be ignored since it happened on a change of possession down.

Whew!! Nice play there. I think I got it right, but I'm no Derock. So, please, Derock give us your opinion.


Doc

[DrMooreReferee]

Good call Mister Neil!!

I got so bogged down in all that other stuff, that I forgot all about the fact that K can indeed advance that "muff" because it was behind the LOS.

Cancel everything I said,,,, I'd like to change my answer to what James said.. LOL



Doc

[Theisey]

James and DrMoore.
Think about this... did the continuity of downs change during this play? (hint Rule-5).

[AndrewMcCarthy]

I'll agree with James on this except one thing- don't be marching that penalty off in the wrong direction!!!

R's ball 1st and 10 on the K 47 after penalizing K 5 yds for an illegal forward pass.

[ABoselli]

So you guys think its R's Ball? Isn't it a fundamental that whoever is in final possession at the end of a scrimmage kick after it has been touched by R beyond the neutral zone is awarded a new set of downs? If that's the case, does the loss of down provision apply here?

[Theisey]

Nope, LOD does not apply in this case.

[ABoselli]

So that would make it K's ball at the K47 1st and ten.

I was gonna throw in something about it being 1 second left in the 2nd half, tie game but I thought I put enough land mines in for openers.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Last time I agree with Jim!!!

Once R touches the kick beyond the NZ the line-to-gain goes away and whoever is in possession at the end of the down will be awarded a new series.

[Theisey]

U got it!

[James Neil]

Originally posted by ABoselli
So you guys think its R's Ball? Isn't it a fundamental that whoever is in final possession at the end of a scrimmage kick after it has been touched by R beyond the neutral zone is awarded a new set of downs? If that's the case, does the loss of down provision apply here?

SEE, SEE, and NOW do ya all see how important it is to have more then one official on the crew who knows penalty enforcement? Especially when “Old Smarty Pants” himself kicks the hell out of the enforcement LOL
Good call AB and Theisey. And Doc, you should have stuck to your guns LOL, Although you might have been off on your reasoning, you were right in your result.
In class tonight I was shown the light after being reminded that following a legal kick the team last in possession will have a 1/10. Now I got to go. My girl friend says it’s best to eat crow while it’s still warm 8^) Good stuff guys!

[JugglingReferee]

Canadian Rules:

Since we use a slightly larger field (43% larger to be exact), I'll adjust the LS to be the 55 (centre field for us). 4th and 11 from the 55.

K kicks. No problem there.

R1 muffs the catch. Silly guy. Nothing wrong there.

K1 recovers and returns the ball to the R-53 (same two yard gain). No problem here.

K1 throws a forward pass beyond the LS. Yowzers. Flag comes out. However, this is a "foul" by the Canadian definition. But it is still illegal.

K3 and K4 downfield has no impact on Canadian football.

K2 is tackled at the R-43 (again, adjusting for field differences).

R's option: accept the penalty: distance was not gained by K, R 1st and 10 at R-53; decline the penalty: K 1st and 10 at R-43 as yards were gained.

Mike