3rd and 17 from a's 20. a passes down field and b interferes. after play a jumps up and punches b in face. live ball pass interference and dead ball personal foul. what is down, distance, and position after penalty is enforced?

Live ball penalty comes first. Defensive pass interference. This should be 15 yard penalty with an automatic 1st down. In your example, you really didn't say if the pass was caught or not. If it was caught, and the offensive team decided to decline the penalty, then so be it. However, I assume the pass was incomplete. 15 yards and automatic first down, the ball is moved to the 35 yardline of A. Then comes the dead ball personal foul. 15 yard penalty against A with an ejection of the player who threw the punch. So, the ball would go right back to the 20 yard line. And it would be first and 10 for A.


The Doctor

It Don't Matter Melvin
 

It does not matter how many different places you ask this question Melvin..you are going to get the same answer, even though it is not the one you want to hear. 1st and 10 at the 20. Drive on!!

Melvin, this enforcement was changed several years ago. Coaches felt that 1st and 25 was too much to overcome.

Now, if the PI occurs, the penalty is assessed, the chains set and the referee blows his whistle and now, there's a dead ball against the offense, it would be 1st and 25. But if the foul occurs before the ready whistle, the chains are not set until all fouls are marked off.

In short, THE LOCAL OFFICIALS GOT IT RIGHT!

Reason for posting on different boards is because I thought someone would at least reply with the actual rule and not just comments. I trust that you are all correct. Just thought there would be a die hard on one of these boards that would reference the rule.

NCAA Rule
 

NCAA Rule is 5-2-7

oh, another reason i questioned the call is because the BJ threw the flag for the DB-PF on A for punching but did not eject the kid. He even told B's coach that the PF was for A punching his player in the face. I didn't think that was a judgement call on whether or not to throw the kid out for throwing a punch to the face. In KY that is automatic. Thus, my reasoning for questioning the whole situation.

Melvin...

I would certainly need to see the actual incident for myself. But it is my feeling that a punch thrown means an ejection. And I don't think it even matters if he connects with his punch or not. NFHS rule 9 section 4 deals with this in depth. It says that striking an opponent is an ejection. Now, as for what KY does, I haven't a clue either. But I would think they should follow the NFHS guidelines. Was this a High School game?

I'm really surprised that a player wasn't ejected for punching an opponent. This kinda makes me think that maybe it might have been something other than a punch. Of course, I haven't seen the play.


The Doctor

H.S. game in the Semi-final of class AA. Two veteran white hats on the crew. One was the linesman whom I've worked with in baseball. It was without a doubt a punch. Official even told the coach that it was a punch. In KY there is 0 tolerance for those actions. I am instructed by the KHSAA to have the P.A. read a sportsmanship card over the speakers as I am reading it to the captains and coaches prior to the coin toss. Which by the way, are there any other states that read a sportsmanship card/info to the capts before the game. It is like a warning right up front about taunting, fighting, cursing, etc. Says no warnings are to be issued. Actions will cause immediate ejection.

The reason there were two white hats is that we treat post season like an all-star officials crew. Rather than one crew do the games, the KHSAA works with the local assoc to pick the best officals and fill out a crew. They don't always pick a LJ and put him in the LJ position. Obviously an R will work the R position but the rest is a coin toss.

NF 2-25-5
The line to gain is the yard line established when a new series (first down) is awarded. Unless there is a penalty following the ready-for-play signal, the line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the foremost point of the ball when placed for the first down of the series.

With regards to the punch, if it was a closed hand punch, he should be ejected. If it was an open handed push to the face or face mask, I would probably not eject.

How do you punch someone in the face who's wearing a helmet with a mask?

Bob

What you have is a live ball 10 yard pass interference penalty on b. ball placed at 10 yard line, automatic first down. Then you have a dead ball unsportsmanlike against a for throwing a punch. Move them back 15 yards, eject player a, and its still a's ball, 1st and 25!

Where did you come with this 10 yard PI penalty from?

Regardless, team-A will have it 1/10 not 1/25. The rules covering that changed at least 5 years ago, maybe more

I think Derock has misread the situation as posted and has the direction of A's movement (in or out) screwed up. But the enforcement he suggests that results in a 1st and 25 is also wrong anyway.

Oops! Read it wrong--thought a had the ball on B's 20. For what its worth, the youth league I officiate in using NFHS rules, pass interference is a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot, automatic first down. Second, the dead ball penalty occurred after the play was over. This is a double foul. You enforce the live ball penalty first. Team a has an automatic first down (1st and 10 at the 30, set the chains). Then you enforce the dead ball foul. 15 yards unsportsmanlike for throwing a punch and ejection of player (1st and 25 at the 15). If I'm incorrect, please correct me with the correct NFHS rule.

Part of the beauty of these discussion forums is you get a chance to learn, if you just take advantage of it. If you went back through this thread and looked at the other responses from folks who are generally recognized as people who know what they are talking about in their particular codes, you would already know the correct answer.

These forums are not like tests where we give an answer and have no way of knowing if the answer is right or not. We can give an answer without looking at the answers but then we can look at the other answers to see if we got it right or wrong.

PS: If Tom Heisey says something, you can take it to the bank!

Yer too kind Mike. While I'd like to believe I can get it right all the time, I know that isn't the case.
(I'm still pouring over those dang fumble plays Rom posted).

One thing for sure, no matter how long one has been at this game, there is always something new to learn or relearn.

...and by the way, when you guys read a post by TXmike, it is right on for NCAA rules.

One last thing, it's snowing kinda hard right now! Those Texas winds must have started blowing it up here.

This forum can make you think.

I am thinking about how to signal the enforcement.

1) Walk off 15 yards from the previous spot and signal pass interference and first down for automatic first down.

2) Then walk back 15 yards and signal personal foul and disqualification if the player was disqualified.

Of course, I could stand still and give all the signals if there are no half the distance enforcements.

But that might cause confusion with someone thinking the penalty for the personal foul never being enforced.

Anybody got any ideas?

I'm sure Tom Heisey and yourself are very good at what you do and I'm not here to challenge anyone's knowlege as a game official. I'm simply providing my comments/views on the posts in this forum just like all the other officials. I'll be the first to admit I'm not always right and I certainly don't know every rule in the rule book nor can I quote a rule without having looking it up first but I am a seven year veteran official who has officiated over 490 football games under NFHS rules. Furthermore, just because you know all the rules and can quote them from rule book doesn't make you a good official. So if you know the rule from the NFHS rule book that says I'm incorrect, please let me know where it is--just want to read the rule for myself.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not always right and I certainly don't know every rule in the rule book nor can I quote a rule without having looking it up first but I am a seven year veteran official who has officiated over 490 football games under NFHS rules. Furthermore, just because you know all the rules and can quote them from rule book doesn't make you a good official. So if you know the rule from the NFHS rule book that says I'm incorrect, please let me know where it is--just want to read the rule for myself. [/B][/QUOTE]

I never commented on your abilities but since you have chosen to call yourself a vet, I have to say this...(and I only say it because I am sick of "vets" who think they should be listened to because they are "vets",not that that applies to you.) If you have reffed for 7 years and have that much experience (490 games), and you do not know this very simple enforcement, i.e. not setting the chains until all the fouls are dealt with, then you have MAJOR problems. Furthermore, if you have that much experience and do not even know where to find the rule in your own rulebook, you have even MORE MAJOR problems. I am not saying just because someone knows the rules backwards and forwards he is going to be a good or great official, but if an official does not know the rules, he will never be anything beyond medioocre. (And I should add...if a guy has reffed 490 games, or 49000 games, but has done them incorrectly, is he really "experienced"????)

Oh yeah, and like I said...if you had looked at the thread you would have seen one of your fellow Fed guys posted the rule reference back on Dec 4 at 1050. (2-25-5)

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 5th, 2002 at 10:17 AM]

Ed, the way I signal the enforcement is:

There was a double foul on the play,
lst foul was a live ball foul, pass interference on the defense--15 yard penalty (for you, my league this is a 10 yard penalty) from the previous spot and an automatic first down!
The second foul was a dead ball foul occurring after the play was over, unsportsmanlike on the offense, the player was ejected for throwing a punch--15 yard penalty from the gaining spot.
1st and 25!

Come on Mike, I never said I couldn't find the rule. I'm simply saying if you know for a fact that what I'm saying is incorrect, correct me by providing the rule location from the NFHS rule book that makes what I'm saying incorrect otherwise, its one official's judgement or view against another. Being official's we tend to be very defensive about rules of the game because we get challenged so much by coaches, players, and other officials that we have conditioned ourselves to stand firm on our views or rule interpretation UNLESS you prove that i'm wrong by producing the rule from the rule book. I'm not trying to say you're right or wrong but if you're going to say I don't know what I'm talking about, I would prefer you quote the rule authority. No disrespect to you or thiesey but I wear black and white stripes just like you do and even though I'm sure your word is "good as gold" or "you can take your word to the bank", you need to have a rule book out if you're going to challenge me.

Well now that the rule has been produced for you, are you still saying the others are wrong and you are right??

And if you were a truly good official you would not make someone else find the rule, you would find it yourself, and then you would know if you were right or wrong. If you can't find it, and you ask for help finding it, that is one thing. But sounds like to me that is not your position. You would rather say that you are right because you have 490 games under your belt and daring someone to prove you wrong.

Heck awhile back you were saying that tripping a runner was illegal. And this from a "vet" official??? You might want to spend sometime this offseason perusing that little ole book.

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 5th, 2002 at 10:50 AM]

Not to nitpick, but it's not a double foul as a live ball foul cannot be paired with a dead ball foul to make a double foul situation. Each is enforced.

I know it's a small detail, but a lot (enforcement choices or lack of choices) can hinge on the terminology here.

PS If this ground has already been plowed, so sorry.

Mike works NCAA code for the high schools in Texas.
I doubt he has a copy of the NFHS rules.

Season is over, so I don't carry them with me anymore, but I can be more than happy to point you to the references later. Probably long after someone else provides it.

Do you have the "comic book". I'm darn sure there is a dead ball enforcement against Team-A in which they show the chains being set AFTER the enforcement.
There is a lot of good pics in that much maligned manual.

As Al pointed out, this is not a double foul. Please go check the definitions for this and also see rule 10. Maybe you'll see the light.

Mike, I don't ever recall saying you or anyone here was wrong. My next post on this subject will be a quote from the NFHS rule book.

derock,
dpi, in nfhs is a 15 yards penalty from the previuos spot and an automatic 1st down.

7 years and 490 games and you thought it was a 10 yard penalty and auto 1st down?

Easy HSWH, it was later stated that this is a "youth" rule modification. I wonder how many other modifications to what we call the NF rules also apply.

txmike,

are you saying that tripping is legal?

theisey,
read what derock says, THE YOUTH LEAGUE I OFFICIATE IN USES NFHS RULES, DPI 10 YARDS AND AUTO 1ST DOWN. he never said it was a youth league modifaction. which we all know leagues have. when he re'does his enforcement of the rule he goes back to the 10 yard penalty again and places the ball on the 30.

Yes, according to what I have read here in this forum tripping the runner is legal. In the games, i officiate I'm tossing my flag if I see a defender uses his foot or leg to trip or tackle anyone. You can trip the runner with your hands but not your feet.

and that's a modification.

### and why not? The rules say tripping the runner is legal and the includes feet, hands, arms , torso.
Is is another youth modification??

Just curious. Can I ask the credentials of the individuals making posts in this room? Are you certified, what level, and for how long? Also, how many games have you actually worked?

Me first,
I have worked 7 years as a member of the suburban football officials association. During that time, I have officated over 490 youth games from ankle-biter or pee-wee teams (ages 5 and 6) up to Youth unlimited (ages 13 and 14, 150lbs and over). We use NFHS rules with modifications from 4 different counties. I am 1 of 3 on my crew with most of my experience being the line judge but have also worked over 100 games as a white hat.

Well, I'm a varsity official, I've lost count of the total games, but varsity high school games, I'm up to about 50, maybe more. I hope that's good enough.

You can trip the runner with your tongue if you feel like it. Nowhere in the rules book does it say you can't trip with your feet/legs/knees/whatever.

Here's the reference (NFHS)
 

I have considerably less experience but I DO know how to open the rule book. The sections that are relevant are...

5-1-2a

and

10-1-3

First and 10!! [I'll refrain from repeating the text here to encourage everyone to open (or find) their books.]

Tripping?!?!? Defined in 2-44 and specifically states "...an opponent, who is not the runner..."

Please tell me why theres a singal for tripping?


you can not trip a runner trying to make a tackle.
15 yards personal foul.

ok ,
Now im not trying to be rude or anything but derock you just said youre one of three officials on your crew and you work mostly as a line judge? All three man crews I know of have a ref/ump/linesmen never heard of a linejudge on a 3 man.

Mr. Bosselli,
you are right you can trip a runner with youre tounge, arms and everything but your leg. You can not stick youre leg out to make a tackle. Hell even the NFL doesn't allow it. Are you telling me if a player was lying on the ground and stuck he leg or foot out to try and make a tackle, thats legal? Thats called a personal foul unsportsmanlike 15 yards.

and don't forget to give the tripping signal

There's a signal because...
 

It's a foul.

9-3-7. A player shall not trip an opponent who is not the runner.

All together now... **WHO IS NOT THE RUNNER**

And in case you missed it there, go to the definition of tripping and find those same 5 words.

Signal 46.

Just my opinion but I think the signal for tripping in hockey is cooler.

I don't need to refer to the rule book on tripping. I have enough game knowledge and experience as a player, coach, and official to know you can not use your feet to initiate ANY form of contact on any player offense or defense. If tripping, the use of your feet to tackle a runner, is allowed then I don't see the difference in using your feet to kick the runner in the knee, stomach, shoulder, or chest in an attempt to bring him down. I know the latter sounds crazy but so is intentionally using your feet to trip the runner. Tripping and kicking action are one in the same. They both involve the raising of ones foot or feet to strike or initiate contact with another player. Furthermore tripping is not an act of good sportsmanship, if you understand the game of football and not just what you misinterpreted in the rule book then you will know tripping has no place in the game of football. Trust me, this is illegal!

Tripping the runner is, by definition, NOT tripping, so it IS legal. Tripping anyone else is not legal which is why there is a signal. Yes in the NFL it is ILLEGAL to trip the runner. But it is not illegal in NCAA and based on what the knowledgeable guys here have said, it is not illegal in Fed either.

For Derock: I have officiated in Texas for 13 seasons. I have officiated in excess of 250 youth league games, 250 subvarsity games, over 100 varsity games, 4 college games, and probably 30 "semi-pro" games. I work mainly as a referee or back judge. I hope you do not base your opinion of an official on the number of games or number of years a guy has officiated. As I alluded to in an earlier post, there is a big difference between doing 25 games "right" and 490 games "WRONG".

### Well if he doesn't tell you yes, then I'm going to tell you yes.. A runner can be tripped and not be called a foul.

Yes, the NFL does not allow this kind of tackle. But Yes, the NCAA and NF do allow it.
Do not equate a leg being thrust out to trip with a kicking action by a player. You can tell the difference and kicking a player, any player is a foul.

<i>Are you telling me if a player was lying on the ground and stuck he leg or foot out to try and make a tackle, thats legal?</i>

The short answer? Yep.

As for kicking and tripping being one and the same (somebody wrote that a few posts ago), that's just plain nuts. The signal for tripping is there so when, let's say, lineman A6 sees he's not going to get to blitzing LB B8, he sticks his big beefy leg out and LB B8 trips over it and hits the ground. Thud. Flag. Now on the next play, when running back A2 is going through the hole and LB B8, still seething from the trip administered previously by A6, sticks his leg out and trips the speedy A2, nice play, spot the ball, blow it ready, play on. You may want to take a peek inside the rule book from time to time as it can dispel myths like this. Anything that comes after the statement, "I don't need to look in the rule book" or "I've officiated long enough to know blah blah blah" has a good chance of being wrong.

I don't know everything, but I know I don't know everything. Even things I'm pretty sure of, I look up because I owe it to the players to be as right as I can be.

[Edited by ABoselli on Dec 5th, 2002 at 08:30 PM]

I forgot the chains. Oh yeah, technically it is not a double foul since there is a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul. They must be enforced separately. I ALWAYS do it that way, some officials don't. I like to develop habits mechanically so that when the time comes it is routine.

Here is my complete dialogue.

I tell my linesman and umpire to walk off fifteen yards, set the stakes and wait for me to signal the first foul.

I then explain the penalty, "There were multiple penalties (technically, there was not but most fans and coaches don't know the difference). They will be enforced separately. There was a live ball foul for defensive pass interference. That is a 15-yard penalty with an automatic first down. (Linesman and umpire complete walk off and set stakes)."

Then walk back to the enforcement spot which will become the succeeding spot. "Following the end of the play, there was a personal foul against the defense for striking an opponent, the player has been disqualified. Following enforcement of all penalties, it is first down and ten from this spot." Then have the linesman and umpire come to the spot.

I really cannot think of a better way to do this to let everybody know that all penalties are being enforced.

See page 46 of this seasons NF comnic book pic 5-3-1 and apply that to you play.

Also find in your rule book, football fundamental IX.2. While your in the area, check out 10-2-4.
Can't get any clearer then that.

Wow!!!

I can't believe there is even a discussion about tripping the runner. The runner is the ONLY player who can be legally tripped. And yes, the defender can stick his leg right out there and trip him up. I've seen it a few times, and almost threw my flag once or twice. Why didn't I throw it? Well, I saw a football in the players hands that got tripped, plain and simple.

Rules are rules, whether you agree with them or not.

Oh, I'm a Referee from SC. And I've worked over 300 hundred games in my career.

The Doctor

SUBJECT: IMPRESS ME WITH KNOWLEDGE NOT CREDENTIALS!!!!!!

since i started this mess i'll attempt to end it.

txmike and theisy, thanks for the info. just because i don't understand a ruling (such as 1st and 10 rather than 1st and 25) doesn't mean that it isn't right. sometimes things sound better to me if they are spoon fed. i will say this, i'll never Begin a NEW series of downs with anything other than 1st and 10!

as for credentials;
h.s. and col. player, near masters degree, own sucessful commercial roofing business which by the way, i frequently have prospective employees suggest that they have been roofing for 20 years and are good at what they do. unlike officials, i can question their judgement and often wonder how someone can be in a trade or vocation for 20 years and still be wrong not knowing correct details or codes. umpired 1,000's(10 yrs) of baseball games jv, v, college. finished at top class at pro school. many post season v and college as well as all star games. 2 years jr high football as v alternate. this is my 1st year as full time v white hat(first time in that position as well). oh, just turned 32.

years and games have done little for me except for provide game experience. proper education from the right people is what has made me a better official/umpire. there are plenty of old charlies that have been working more years and games than me and still believe that they know all of the rules and will argue til their death even after you have proven them wrong. my second year (age 26) in this local umpire association i challenged two vet umpires (15 years plus) who both worked post season and one worked a state final game to throw their wallets on the table over a simple rule disagreement. both backed down. i read them the rule and the top dog said yep, i've been doing it wrong for all these years, the other charlie still didn't believe he was wrong even after the rule was read and the other guy ate crow.

simple philosophy of a friend of mine who has worked a world series; if you are in pickle and are in doubt, common sense and fair play will always bail you out. and having good instincts doesn't hurt.

in MY opinion txmike and Theisy know their stuff (without asking for their credentials) and i'll certainly use them as crutches in the future. thus, one should never throw away thier creditability challenging someones credentials.

P.S. The simple rule was Batters Interference with the Catchers Attempted Throw to retire a runner. Both argued that it was interference when the batter stood in the box when the runner on 2nd advancing to 3rd on pitch and C stood up to throw but did not because B was in the way it was B interference. also argued that if B stepped in front of plate when r on 1st was stealing 2nd it was B int. Rule says ATTEMPTED throw. if C doesn't attempt the throw because B is in the way he is stupid. if he is smart he throws it in the outfield and gets B out and runner(s) return. Sounds like the tripping play. Must know definitions to understand the rule.

Yep. First and ten. Comic book reinforces what you said about 1st and ten.

The only way to get 1st and 25 is after the ready for play an A player commits an unsportsmanlike or a personal foul before the snap.

BTW. The reason I would set the chains twice comes with experience. My first season as a white hat I had a play like the one described. I had the first walk off. Then the second walk off returned to the same spot. Then I set the chains. It was assumed I was confused when the mechanic was by the book. Of course, the average coach and the fans of the little burg we were working had no idea. You learn by experience.

Neither can I, Doc. It's not a foul to trip a runner, no matter what part of your body you useto do it. That's incredible that there are football officials who think this is a foul. I would love to know what rule reference or case play they base this belief on. :(

BTW, where are you in SC?

Easley,SC

Not too far from Greenville or Anderson. Kinda betwixed in between the two.

The Doctor

Hey Boselli....Can YOU really trip a runner with your tongue or is that just some more macho Italian Stallion BS????

Not since they made me wear a mouthguard. I was going to use another piece of anatomy for emphasis, but I figured it would be too ribald.

I can almost hear Keith Jackson...
 

WHOH, NELLIE!! BOSELLI REALLY GOT HIS LICKS IN ON THAT PLAY!!