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-   -   Sugar Bowl Safety (https://forum.officiating.com/football/60366-sugar-bowl-safety.html)

youngump Wed Jan 05, 2011 04:57pm
[One of many board hoppers on this question]
The thing I wondered about this play is what you'd do if the defense did this on purpose [I realize that'd be awfully tough in realtime.] But hit a guy at the one and drive him into the endzone. Realize that you're in the endzone and then let go. Can the runner do anything at this point to regain his forward progress or does he now have to attempt to advance out of the endzone?
________
SEXYCHIKU

JRutledge Wed Jan 05, 2011 05:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 712331)
[One of many board hoppers on this question]
The thing I wondered about this play is what you'd do if the defense did this on purpose [I realize that'd be awfully tough in realtime.] But hit a guy at the one and drive him into the endzone. Realize that you're in the endzone and then let go. Can the runner do anything at this point to regain his forward progress or does he now have to attempt to advance out of the endzone?
What would you do at anytime a defensive player lets go of a player with the ball on purpose?

Peace

Rich Wed Jan 05, 2011 05:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 712222)
Were you watching a bowl game from 15 years ago? ;)
Time warp, I guess. Tressel. I actually had to look that up. One of my least favorite programs in all of college sports. Every time I hear a player introducing himself and he says "THEE Ohio...." I want to throw a brick through my TV.

Rich Wed Jan 05, 2011 05:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712232)
The top statement is the point. If he would have just gone down then the play would have not been a safety. But when players often try to fight for extra yardage and they get away from these kinds of tackles, you let the play continue. Now if the one tackler had brought him down I agree without a question this is not a safety. But the player broke away and had 2 or 3 other players ultimately tackle him. This is not youth ball, these are great athletes. How many great plays do we see on SportsCenter when we think a player is down and they run for a TD or make big yardage after the first contact? The player has to know where he is on the field and stop fighting for yards. A similar thing happen earlier in the game when it appeared an Arkansas player could have been stopped, but was fighting for more yards and had the ball stripped out of his hand. If you are stopped, go down. When you continue to fight for yards, you are responsible for what happens after that until you are ruled to be truly stopped.

Peace
I'm not sure anyone would've blinked at a loss of yardage if this happened at midfield. Why should the end zone be any different? If he broke the tackle (and he did), then I'll let him gain yards, but I'll also let him lose yards and/or fumble.

I like the window sill analogy, but I don't think it applies here since the tackle was broken.

Eastshire Wed Jan 05, 2011 07:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 712350)
I'm not sure anyone would've blinked at a loss of yardage if this happened at midfield. Why should the end zone be any different? If he broke the tackle (and he did), then I'll let him gain yards, but I'll also let him lose yards and/or fumble.

I like the window sill analogy, but I don't think it applies here since the tackle was broken.
I would have, especially after watching the slow motion replay they showed during the game. He didn't break the tackle, the defender still had him by the legs when the second group of defenders engaged him.

I think it was a defensible, but ultimately wrong, call (but as I said, I'm biased).

I also thought the wing hurt himself by conferring with the R. What possible information does the R have that affects the call on forward momentum? It looked like the wing was confused as to what happened.

Mike L Wed Jan 05, 2011 07:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712317)
I would not want to give a cheap safety. But the player in question tried to get away and did, so I would have doubted the decision for sure. Again, the player goes down this is not an issue.

Peace
But you said you probably would have ruled it progress stopped. So if you would have ruled it that way, what reason is there for not sounding the whistle?

Mike L Wed Jan 05, 2011 07:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712320)
The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace
As an R, because I do not have spotting responsibility, the only thing I would have done in this situation is ask the wing did he have progress stopped or does he have a safety since there is no indication by him of either at the end of the play. In fact it would have taken a longer conversation because I would have asked if he REALLY did not have progress stopped because it sure looked like it and a cheap safety is not something we want to award. So I think this assumption the R is somehow "sharing" information is just that, an assumption. None of us have any idea what is being said by whom and to whom.
And when I have progress stopped with a player being driven back I have a whistle and a hard one at that. If you don't, you are simply asking for a boat load of trouble. I think it's obvious from a play like this, there are times when everyone does NOT know the play is over and it's your job as the official to make sure they do know.

JRutledge Wed Jan 05, 2011 09:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 712386)
But you said you probably would have ruled it progress stopped. So if you would have ruled it that way, what reason is there for not sounding the whistle?
I would have ruled it that way based on the first look I got. That does not mean I would have blown it before the play finished. I do not know about you, but the whistle is not in my mouth at all times. And certainly in not a play like this or as the wing official. Heck there are plays my crew did not have a whistle at all in the last two years and the play someone ended. Interesting how that happens.

Peace

JRutledge Wed Jan 05, 2011 09:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 712388)
As an R, because I do not have spotting responsibility, the only thing I would have done in this situation is ask the wing did he have progress stopped or does he have a safety since there is no indication by him of either at the end of the play. In fact it would have taken a longer conversation because I would have asked if he REALLY did not have progress stopped because it sure looked like it and a cheap safety is not something we want to award. So I think this assumption the R is somehow "sharing" information is just that, an assumption. None of us have any idea what is being said by whom and to whom.
And when I have progress stopped with a player being driven back I have a whistle and a hard one at that. If you don't, you are simply asking for a boat load of trouble. I think it's obvious from a play like this, there are times when everyone does NOT know the play is over and it's your job as the official to make sure they do know.
Why would you need to ask? Whatever the wing ruled he does not need to necessarily tell you. It looked to me like the wing was asking for assistance on if the runner got away. Now none of us know that sitting here, we would have to talk to the officials to know for sure. But they did make eye contact and say something to each other before a signal went up.

And I did not necessarily ask you what you would do. If you feel you need to get on the whistle quickly that is you. My training as told me that can be slow and deliberate and if the play is over my whistle is not going to change that.

Peace

jchamp Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:06pm
I just watched the play again on the DVR. Seeing it in full speed, and from the press box angle, it looked like he should have had progress at the 2. From the goal line angle, B1 makes the initial hit, drives him back, and falls to the ground on his back/right arm, letting go. At this time A1's left foot is on the ground, pushing forward. He takes one more step mostly towards the sideline, and is contacted by three B players almost simultaneously. He takes an additional step with his right foot before the B mass drags him to the ground and his show end's up on a giant "S".
I do feel dumber having listened to the announcer say so many times "Because there was no whistle, that was still a live play." I would totally get HD though, if I could have the option of muting just the announcers and still hearing the band/crowd noise.

Coach Jinx Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712320)
The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace
how about when the opposite wing has forward pregress at the 2? You see the L in the place almost out to the hash saying he had forward progress at the 2. I wonder how that went in the locker room. L is sprinting in with arm up before player gets tackled in the EZ.

JRutledge Thu Jan 06, 2011 02:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Jinx (Post 712441)
how about when the opposite wing has forward pregress at the 2? You see the L in the place almost out to the hash saying he had forward progress at the 2. I wonder how that went in the locker room. L is sprinting in with arm up before player gets tackled in the EZ.
The calling official was the one at the top of the screen. The ball was facing him and he would have been the best person to make the call. So what the other official was doing is really not relevant for many purposes.

Peace

Coach Jinx Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712468)
The calling official was the one at the top of the screen. The ball was facing him and he would have been the best person to make the call. So what the other official was doing is really not relevant for many purposes.

Peace
well unlike the R, both wings have forward progress & if you have one sprinting in with forward progress it at the worst looks bad if u move it back or to a safety


your quick to say this or that but it is relevant if one wing has it, just because he was closer doesnt mean he was right

bisonlj Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 712468)
The calling official was the one at the top of the screen. The ball was facing him and he would have been the best person to make the call. So what the other official was doing is really not relevant for many purposes.

Peace
It is very relevant if he was signalling the ball dead because of forward progress prior to the runner getting tackled. If that's the case, it's at least an inadvertent signal. He ruled forward progress based on his signal so he should have at least been a part of the conversation.

Robert Goodman Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 712321)
Part of the rule includes this statement: " When in question, forward progress is stopped."
But the question is not merely whether his forward progress was stopped, rather whether he was so held that his forward progress was stopped. So the key word in determination is "held".


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