N. Carolina/Tennessee

[RealityCheck]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Can you post a copy of the video. I didn't see 12 players participating. I was just posting the rule regarding the players departing the field at the snap is a live ball sub. foul. If in fact 12 players were in the formation then that would be a participation foul.

I don't have a way to post video. I will try to post images from the espn3 stream.

I counted only 11 at first excluding the players leaving because there was a holder with no kicker. The kicker was just out of frame even on widescreen 4 yards behind the holder. When the picture pulls back after the spike then you can see 12 players still on the field.

[TXMike]

There were 12 in the formation but were they really "participating" in the play when all the play was was a spike?

[RealityCheck]

Originally Posted by TXMike

There were 12 in the formation but were they really "participating" in the play when all the play was was a spike?

If they were lined up, they participated. Doesn't matter what type of play was run.

[ottobabble]

I just checked the highlight in HD and there were definitely 12 players in the formation!

I am guessing this should have been a 49 FG attempt instead of a 39 yard attempt.

[RealityCheck]

I just made a screen capture with the ball still in the QB's hands....12 UNC players between the numbers. No doubt it was illegal participation.

6 players in 3-point stance on the line and a wideout on the left side on the line to make 7 on the line of scrimmage.
Another wideout off the line on the left and a slot on the right. QB under center with the holder and kicker deep...5 in the backfield makes 12....this isn't the CFL or CIAU.

Wish I had a way to post the screencap.

[TXMike]

YouTube - North Carolina Tries To Lose Music City Bowl

[HLin NC]

I live in NC but have been a Tennessee fan since I was a kid. All 4 teams appeared to blunder at the end. Poor discipline by UT, bizaare play call and clock mgt. by UNC and the crew seemed disjointed. Davie kept referring to USC's as PF's. Of course this is the same announcer guy that referred to the Clausen brothers as CLOW-son in the past so its to be expected.

Not sure about the PF on the pass completion as I'm Fed. Did the launch have anything to do with it because the hit looked like it was with the shoulder by the UT DB? It was a good no call on the one where Davie was complaining about the late hit as A49 gave B42 a little shove at the end.

Since this was a Big 10 crew, I expected much better mic work by the WH. He lacked polish in his delivery. It was almost like he just got moved to R. He stammered and stumbled on just about every announcement.

UT deserved to lose given their play in the last 1:35.

[BktBallRef]

The head lineman threw the flag for illegal subsitution because there were four Tar Heels still running off the field when the ball was snapped. I don't think the R or U counted the players in the formation.

I was real disappointed the UT Qb wasn't flagged for the double throat slash he gave to the Carolina sideline. Somebody's gotta see that and make the call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The head lineman threw the flag for illegal subsitution because there were four Tar Heels still running off the field when the ball was snapped. I don't think the R or U counted the players in the formation.

I was real disappointed the UT Qb wasn't flagged for the double throat slash he gave to the Carolina sideline. Somebody's gotta see that and make the call.

True, but justice was served in the 2nd OT with the pick.

[rulesmaven]

Really interesting discussion about the participation v. formation question.

After the game, the Tennessee coach was making the point that the NFL has a 10 second run off for this situation, but I'm not sure he was right. I think the NFL rule only applies to motion penalties, but not formation. (I'm not sure about participation.)

Anyway, this got me to thinking about a question for these sorts of end of game situations. If you're ok with a 5 yard penalty and out of time outs, why go through the effort of lining up in a regular formation at all? Suppose you make a play down the field with very little time left that doesn't stop the clock? (Maybe it was a 1st and 20 and you only get 18 or something.) Rather than running your linemen all the way to the line, just coach them to stand still. The player who had the ball can just run up to the spotted ball and snap it to another player -- say, a receiver who is also downfield with him to clock the ball.

So long as everyone is still, would this work or be anything other than a formation penalty? Even if everyone is not still, it's still only 5 yarder, right? (Although in the NFL, you have the 10 second run off.) Could save 10 seconds or so. I always see teams in the situation run the line and get everyone set before they snap and clock -- even after a first down where the clock stops until the ready signal, they lose several seconds. Why bother if you're ok with 5 yards?