Excessive celebration-Pinstripe Bowl
 

An absolute national disgrace.
The Big Ten should be embarrassed for nominating this crew knowing it would make such a horrendous decision.
Its track record was obvious.

I saw this play and the ensuing call. I'm a basketball guy but I'd like to hear what some football vets think about this one. From an outsider's perspective it seemed harsh at a critical juncture in the game. Definitely had an impact on the outcome.

I'll hang up and listen now...thanks for taking my call...

Is this about the flag for the salute.

Some days I think the USA is falling like the Roman Empire fell.

Yes. A player saluted to the crowd following a late TD. He was flagged for excessive celebration (I think). It was assesed on the two point convesion attempt (Ks St. HAD to go for two to tie with around a minute left). Following the penalty, the ball was placed around the 17 instead of the 2. 2 point conversion (to tie) failed. Ks. St. loses by 2.

What really puzzles me is how THIS was flagged when I see much sillier behavior following a score in college ball. I'm wondering if THIS particular act is a point of reference this year or something. Is it a conference thing? Spirit of the rule?

This call and crew is getting the national ridicule it deserves.

jimpiano,

Although, I did not see the call in question, I question your approach and opinion about the Big Ten Conference selections for this year's bowl season.

The Big Ten has sent its best officials at every position to every one of its bowl game assignments including this year's BCS National Championship.

Also, across the board from high school to the NFL post scoring play showboating has been a point of emphasis on officiating crews.....so whether you or other officials agree or disagree with the call.....the crew was at least watching what happened after the play

While I don't know what type of instruction Big Ten crews have had regarding this type of display, I do know that when it happens has nothing to do with whether it should be flagged or not. If that's a foul in the 1st qtr. it's a foul in the 4th quarter.

What is telling is that the exact same thing has happened twice in the UNC-UT game but no call has been made.

Pay him no mind. He's not an official. He's just a fanboy who posts here whenever there's a controversial call made. He's not here to participate in a discussion, just to stir trouble. Put him on your Ignore List.

Thanks for the heads up bktballref for the heads up.....I will do that

Must have missed the flashing of the O sign after an Orangeman touchdown. Being a Big Ten crew they must find this to be a penalty only when done by an Ohio State player. And the exhibition at mid field following a sack on the KSU QB in the fourth; afterwhich, the player unbuckled his helmet and slowly ran his hand up his body was not considered a violation of either the spirit or the letter of the world!? I have officialte for over 30 years can not wrap my head around the calls (made and not made) at that juncture of the game. But then again, I wondered what Synder was thinking about going for it on 4th and 5. It's too bad a fun game to watch will be debated over the call made by the officals and not the coaches.

It's tough to defend this one. I have no allegiance whatsoever to Kansas State. I just can't see how you make that call. It was a simple salute to his own fans. It lasted all of one second. The kid didn't even pause. Simple gestures like that happen in every football game, at every level. I'm up for hearing the opposing viewpoint, but I think it's pretty clear that this was an inappropriate flag.

Tennessee players, both the receivers and the QB did it after all three TS passes, as well as one receiver who pulled the belt buckle gag. No flags for any of those, Big Ten crew as well. That's real hard for fans to understand, much less officials.

Plays like this were on the NCAA training video this year that instruct officials to flag this. He could have just as easily walked to his team area but instead he put the officials in a position to make a judgement call. 2 officials flagged it independently of each other. What do you do when you have a rule that says it's a foul?

Obviously, you call the foul. Because of the two flags, I figured that this crew had run into this situation earlier in the season or in training, and someone told them to penalize this action. Where it becomes frustrating is when very similar, or even bigger, actions in other games are not penalized. It isn't just frustrating for the fans of that team, but also for others who are quick to criticize, but slow to look up the actual rule. For the record, I am a K-State student and fan, but I really am a basketball official, so I am trying really hard to participate in the discussion but not be a fanboy.

OK, I can with that. But why doesn't another crew from the same conference make the same call when players in their game repeatedly commit the same act? That's inconsistency and it makes the crew look very bad.

Big Ten officiating had a bad day all around...this crew flags a minor salute that should draw a warning at most and the UNC-Tennessee crew can't count to 12 (players participating in formation).

I totally understand this, but how can a salute be seen as excessive and not the "O" crap the Syracuse player did especially after the "throw back" TD? If you look at this play, why was it OK for the Syracuse player to grab the KSU player 8 yards deep in the EZ just before the KSU player saluted?

KSU lost this game for a lot of reasons (horrible defense, questionable coaching decisions, etc...) other than a horse crud call (in my humble opinion). Two flags on that doesn't change my opinion of it. Why did they chose this one to flag and not flag all the other obvious "calling attention to themselves" acts.

I will offer one possbile explaination, there could have been warnings communicated to the KSU sideline prior to this, and if so, I put it all on the player and the coaching staff.

Obviously there is inconsistency in how the rule is interpreted across the country and that needs to be fixed pronto.

It will never be consistent because each official has to judge whether or not the action is legal or not. They want officials to allow "spontaneous" celebrations, but not something that draws attention to ones self. You can certainly see now how much attention this has drawn. What is so hard for these players to just hand the ball to the official and then go to the huddle or his sideline. Go to the sideline and celebrate all you want. It really is that simple. Each official has a different level to what he "feels" is ok and what he don't. We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

Was he celebrating or showboating?

It is impossible to list every action a player or team might commit and define which ones are acceptable and which ones are excessive. Therefore it remains in the realm of judgment.

Forget listing all of the unacceptable behaviors and lets agree on a short list of acceptable behaviors. I'll start with 1.

I remember in high school being coached with this line: After you score give the ball to the official and go to the huddle: they can't flag you for that.

Well said!

COLLEGE FOOTBALL OFFICIATING, LLC

CFO GUIDELINES ON UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS

Player behavior in committing unsportsmanlike conduct fouls continues to be a major point of emphasis for the NCAA Football Rules Committee and the CFO Board of Managers. Recognizing these fouls and enforcing the penalties place our officials in a difficult situation. It is the nature of the business to be criticized, and it seems especially true when we try to apply the relevant rules (Rule 9-2-1). These are judgment calls, as are all the decisions officials make during the action of the game.

As officials apply their judgment, perhaps these guidelines will be helpful:

•Remember that the game is one of high emotion, played by gifted teenagers who are affirmed by playing a game at which they are exceptionally talented.
•Do not be overly technical in applying this rule.
•Do allow for brief spontaneous emotional reactions at the end of a play.
•Beyond the brief, spontaneous bursts of energy, officials should flag those acts that are clearly prolonged, self-congratulatory, and that make a mockery of the game.
A list of specifically prohibited acts is in (a) thru (h) on FR-122,123; this list is intended to be illustrative and not exhaustive. We can all agree that when these acts are clearly intended to taunt or demean, they should not be allowed—not only because they are written in the book, but because they offend our sense of how the game should be played. We now have enough experience with this rule to know what “feels” right and wrong. Note that most if not all of these actions fall outside the category of brief, spontaneous outbursts. Rather, they present themselves as taunting, self-glorification, demeaning to opponents, or showing disrespect to the opponents and the game.

When such a situation arises, officials should wait a count, take a deep breath, and assess what they feel about what they have seen.

If it feels OK, let it go.

If it feels wrong, flag it.

It will never be possible to be totally specific in writing what should and should not be allowed. But we trust our officials to be men of good judgment who know in their hearts what should and should not be allowed in the heat of an emotional game.



Rogers Redding

NCAA Secretary-Rules Editor



David Parry

CFO National Coordinator

The problem is more the draconian rule then the officials, but I personally thought the call completely unnecessary and it ruined what would have otherwise been an exciting finish to a close game.

It was a quick, spontaneous action by an obviously excited player. It was not, IMHO, an intentional attempt to draw attention to himself. That two officials saw fit to throw flags on it is staggering to me.

Hopefully, this incident will get the rules committee to lighten up on celebrations.

What is the "belt buckle gag"?

Simulated unbuckling his belt and undoing his pants. How stupid is that?

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it. As officials we are always working to be consistent. To accept inconsistency in this situation, when 95% of the time this call involves scoring opportunities is total BS.

I'm usually not critical of officials in such situation but there's no way to defend that call. It's obvious that the two officials didn't take any of the bullet points listed in the memo that TXMike posted into account. If they did, no flag would have been thrown.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game.

The "how does it feel" mentality is BS and makes the officials the bad guys. :mad:

Keep in mind the salutes in the other games may not have been seen by an official. Just because a camera caught it doesn't mean an official caught it. I saw a throat slash by the UT QB on film that would have been an easy foul if the official had seen it. It happened long enough after the play the R had probably stopped watching the QB. That also leads to the inconsistent application of this rule.

Do you think maybe after scoring that late in a bowl game he was, in fact, saluting the fans who were still with his team, and who were cheering to the end when their team needed a big play?

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

Understood. But we saw three salutes, a double throat slash, and a belt buckle pull, yet not one was flagged. Now, I can buy 1 or 2 not being seen but all 5?

Now, had the K-State salute not been flagged, I wouldn't have though anything about any of those except the throat slash. I would have passed on all but the slash.

But if other Big Ten crews are flagging those, then this Big Ten crew needs to work on their dead ball officiating.

Consistency
 

This is the part that makes the call difficult to swallow - as was discussed at some length by Mark May and Lou Holtz....and the refs were apparently from the same conference!

Whether my expectations are realistic or not, there's no way you can justify a salute being flagged as USC in one game and in the very next game, on the same network, a crew from the same conference ignores the exact same act three times.

There's nothing new about about this "celebration nonsense" as you describe it. It's been in the game for years. Ever heard of Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? He was knee wobbling when I was a kid in the 70's. Players were spiking the ball and dunking it over the cross bar in the 80's. The "Icky Shuffle" is 20 years old. This isn't new and it's not going away.

This situation is broken and needs to be fixed. Players, coaches, fans, and even fellow officials should be subject to the whims of a particular official is feeling on a given day. If the guidelines presented don't work, and they obviously don't, then new guidelines need to be created. The NCAA has the technological ability to issue clarifications and guidelines to officials and coaches on a daily basis. As it is, the NCAA is making the officials the whipping boy as opposed to taken responsibility for the enforcement. The way the rules are currently written, the guidelines given, and the NCAA's "it's up to the official" mentality, it all places the officials in the line of fire from fans, coaches, players and the media.

It simply is not fair to officials.

Allegedly, the calling official ran up to the player and said to him "Wrong choice buddy" and then flagged him. Sounds a lot like a "I gotcha!". Not very professional in my opinion.

I still do not understand why the "diamond" gesture, which was displayed a lot longer by the Syracuse player is not a foul but the brief salute is.

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct. Officials have been instructed to be very strict. It was mentioned that each play will be reviewed as well as each official. Perhaps there will be some discipline to the other 3 calls that were apparently missed.

NCAA officials coordinator backs calls in Pinstripe, Music City Bowls - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

This.

Plus, I'd add that rules and their enforcement need to give players reasonable notice of what they can and can't do. Players watch sportscenter. They see what their opponent does. How can you have a situation where nobody knows what is legal and what is not?

The answer that one can just hand the ball to an official and run to the sideline and have nothing to worry about is not satisfying to me. If you want that to be the rule, fine. Make it the rule. It sure would help officials. But that's not the rule. So long as the rules allow for some spontaneous celebration, it's very hard to see how one can justify last night's call. If a rule is so ambiguous that even the same crew doesn't call it the same way every time, then you simply have to err on the side of not calling it unless it's something you feel confident most objective people would say, "ah, yes, that's what we want to stop."

Well said by a man who still has a game to play this year and knows officials might be reading. :)

If you were a player and you've seen all the inconsistencies on all the sports replays and you weren't sure if you'd get flagged or not, why would you risk doing something that may or may not be flagged. When playing with fire, sometimes you get burned and sometimes you don't. My advice is to NEVER play with fire because you never know when it's your turn to get burned. Two officials judged the action to be a foul. Other officials may not agree it was a foul. 50/50 is just not an area, if I were a player, that I'd risk doing something to draw a flag. They can never give enough rule changes that could say that this act will be a foul 100% of the time and this act will never be a foul. It just don't work that way. It just another judgement call. Don't do something to force that official to use judgement. That should be enough of a deterant that all players will not risk doing anything. There is a very good chance we don't see any type of action following a score the rest of this year. If that turns out to be true, then mission accomplished with removing celebrations from the game, which is the mission of the rules committee.

Then all you've done is created a de facto rule that doesn't actually exist.

If that's the rule the rules committee wants, they should have the courage to enact it and accept the wrath of fans and boosters who want some spontaneous celebration in the game. Alternatively, aim for something more objective like the NFL has done. Either way, take the officials out of the cross-hairs. It seems pretty clear that trying to walk some ever-moving line just means everyone gets caught in the switches.

I don't like it personally myself, but I don't blame the officials either. Players need to remember all the inconsistencies with how these are officiated and just don't do anything that may or may not draw a flag. Hand the ball to the official and go to the huddle or team area is the best thing a player can do as we have seen in past few years. Every year there is always one game that draws some attention to one of these types of calls. Players should know by now that it could happen to them.

Very true. We'll see how supportive he is if his player gets flagged for the same action. :)

Uhhhhh UCONN is playing Oklahoma right? May not have to worry about any celebration penalties by UCONN

I work enough football games at the high school level and I never see these antics. If you hand the official the ball and celebrate with a teammate, then you will not have to worry about what is called on you.

Also this has been addressed so many times which is why there is going to be a rule next year to flag celebrating before they get to the end zone. It is really simple. Do not do this stuff and you will not have to worry about it.

Peace

We already know the throat slash in the UNC-UT game should have been flagged as 9-2-1a specifically addresses it.

I wonder what Parry and Edsall think of the three salutes and belt buckle that were not called in that game. :confused:

I wouldn't have made the call myself but I also don't think about how Sportscenter or other officials will perceive my call either before I make it. Every year we have one of these calls that gets all the attention and that has been pretty consistent each year.

People complain about things which are not called as fouls all the time. Officials get calls 100% correct and ESPN runs stories saying they are wrong. Your logic doesn't make any sense.


I don't know why people say thing all the time; it is just some stupid statement that you are likely to hear from some sportscaster. How about striving to officiate the game properly? That may mean making a big call at the end of the game which focuses attention on yourself.

Ah no, it doesn't and it's about much more than that. It's obviously reflects on Big Ten officiating. It reflects on the inconsistency between one crew and another, which reflects on their training.

The Music City Bowl referee studdering and stumbling through most of his penalty announcements and explanation reflected poorly as well. Perhaps he's a fine offical but his certainly wasn't the best face for the Big Ten. I've never seen a referee appear to be that nervous.

I noted the same. Like it or not, as these conferences push hard for the big TV dollars, that is a small thing they are going to have to keep in mind. I don't expect Ed Hochuli type mic work but that guy seemed as if he had just moved to R before the bowl from another position.

As one my old hoops coaches used to say, "He's got no rap."

Will you stop it please!!! :rolleyes:

For one there is a reason why certain officials get assigned certain games at all levels. You earn that right because you or your crew made the fewest mistakes in your evaluation system. Like it or not these are individuals on individual crews. What someone on another crew does is irrelevant in the bigger picture. I know many Big Ten officials and many Big Ten crew chiefs (as well as guys in the MAC and other Alliance conferences) and what they do is hard. And if they do not do what is asked of them they will not work and that includes Bowl games. What someone does in another game has nothing to do with what happens in your game. If the Big Ten does not like the call these guys will know. If there is inconsistency they will hear about it in their meetings and other correspondence. You can only control what you call in your game. You should know that being an official. I do not ever care what someone else does in their games because what I do will stand alone and be evaluated. And these rules have been talked about at the NCAA level extensively and I am sure in their conference. You can go on and on about how this reflects on the Big Ten but only uneducated people would think that. There are reasons that some guys make it in the Big Ten and others do not make it there. There are reasons that some guys go to Bowl games and others are sitting at home. Not to say that this was clearly the right call, but they will hear about it either way and based on some preliminary statements the higher ups liked the application. And at the NCAA, the coaches are the ones that write and create these rules. Officials are asked to enforce them and if they don't, they will find a few thousand people willing to take their spot and qualified to do their job, trust me on that one.


Peace

I notice that "being unseen" is not part of the job as you see it.

No, I will not stop it. This is a forum and I'm allowed to express my opinion without worrying about whether you like it or not. Don't like it, don't read it.

How is he supposed to know if he likes your opinion if he doesn't read it first? By the time he realizes he doesn't like it he has already read it. Your post really makes no sense at all.

Wow, some of the unmitigated silliness offered on this subject is staggering. Every single player who is a member of a collegiate football team anywhere in the nation has been advised to avoid the showmanship nonsense celebrated by ESPN and other media outlets.

As has been know since time immemorial (or should have been) "If you can't do the time, DON'T DO THE CRIME". A player wants to gamble, places his own celebration ahead of his team and accepts the risks of his actions has to also accept the possible consequences of his actions. Whining and complaining about being punished, as you should have absolutely expected, just doesn't cut it.

Bad behavior by others should NEVER be considered an excuse, or license, to behave badly. Those of us who question another official's integrity, courage or ability should have some extremely hard evidence to back up their assumptions, or simply keep their mouths shut.

Of course if you've already worked your first perfect game, you can pontificate all you want, but until you do you might consider your own last assignment and how far you may have been from achieving perfection before polishing your halo.

It is an expression relax!!! This is not the NF forum where you can dictate what I say. ;)

You can express whatever opinion you like, but that does not mean it is based on knowledge or competence. Do you work any college football? Maybe if you did I would understand your position. You do not have to answer and I will read whatever I like and comment on whatever I like on this forum. You cannot ban me because I call you out here. :D

Peace

None of that justifies making a call that shouldn't be made.

[quote]Bad behavior by others should NEVER be considered an excuse, or license, to behave badly. Those of us who question another official's integrity, courage or ability should have some extremely hard evidence to back up their assumptions, or simply keep their mouths shut.

The evidence is listed in the bullet points that TXMike listed earlier in the thread. Had those bullet points but followed, the flag never would have been thrown.

That's very weak. I guess it's supposed to make anyone who's ever questioned anything feel guilty. Doesn't work for me. None of us has worked a perfect game. That doesn't mean situations can't be discussed or mistakes pointed out. They can and will continue to be discussed.

As I've said from the get-go, the way the rules and guidelines are written, it puts the offiicals in position to be the bad guy and the scape goat.

Oh, and Geofrrey, I will continue to post on this an other boards without regard to your opinions your illusions that you can tell me to stop.

Tony is a guy that thinks he can bully everyone that disagrees with him and name call when he is called to the carpet. This is no different. And I would expect a person of his stature to no better considering he is a State Final official two times and probably has had success because he does what is good for his career. But then again I do not know if he even works a single college football game or is on a staff. I am on an alternate on a college staff and I can tell you in every one of my games I do what is best for me and what fits the crew philosophy. I do not give a damn what some other official on the staff does or does not do. And I am sure that is what was going through the mind of the officials that made the call (two of them made this call BTW). So all their training and experience came into play and they are very aware of the tape and how they will be perceived if they do not call the foul by the evaluators. They could give a damn individually what the Big Ten is seen on a call that is in their game. That is the evaluator's job if they even care. And if he does not like my comments about what he says he cannot post them on a public forum so everyone can see them. ;)

Peace

What you meant to say was that in your opinion, what happened should not have been a foul.

An argument can't get any weaker than that. You can't cite your own opinion and act like it is a fact.

Cobra, everyone who posts here is posting their opinion. No one has to type "in my opinion" every time they write something. Unless it's a direct reference, we're all offering what we think.

Geoffrey, I hadn't heard you're an alternate on a college staff. Congrats. We're all real impressed. :D

I haven't bullied anyone. You're then one telling me to stop posting. Again, I will continue to voice my opinion, whether it's about your precious Big Ten or anything else I choose.

Have a nice day, gentlemen.

Unlike you I seem to really understand what this place is or is not. Which is why you can, will and are going to post whenever you like and I fully expect you to. But that also means that folks like me whether you respect it or not are going to also comment. And you can call what I say illusions, but I did not get to where I am as an official by making them very often (if ever). And unless you work college ball you have no idea what the thinking of those officials are and certainly not as an umpire. :D

Peace

Big Fat Tony,

You do not have to be impressed but I do know the conversations that go on with these kinds of calls. If you are simply a HS official that mentality is different you may not understand the process or the training that goes into these kinds of calls. It is like people who only work HS basketball comment on what is called at the college level in basketball but do not realize that the NCAA want more calls made on all kinds of things. This issue has been discussed so much in the past 2 or 3 years (remember the Washington-BYU game a few years ago). Again is it OK to disagree with the call, but to say it represents the Big Ten good or bad based on two completely different teams is silly. Only someone that knows little to nothing about college football officiating says that. You may know something, but that was just silly on the face of it considering how the assignments are made. This is not your local officiating association we are talking about here, these are guys all over the region to work games and they must follow something or there are guys in many D1 officials or guys in conferences like CCIW or many other small conferences that will take their place. For the record I have not real aspirations to work that level as I do not know if I can give up my basketball.

Yes, I do work college ball and it is not high school ball as it is not like working high school sports. Much more scrutiny and they will find someone else to work those games very quickly if you do what guys say on a discussion board. The only person that holds you accountable is your crew and you may go an entire season of high school ball and not hear a single person tell you to do something right or wrong in football. At the college level you might have an evaluator that tells you what is done and there is a game report sent after every game. Just a little different process. ;)

Peace

He does this all the time. Nothing new in this discussion.

Peace

Not really...you are making it sound like the official is disregarding the bullet points.

You are saying that if the official had done it the way the memo instructs that a foul would not have been called.

These officials who called the foul are working a bowl game. I'm going to take a guess and say that they have read the memo as well as the rule book and know how to they are to judge these types of fouls. I'm sure that they went through the judgement process as they have been instructed to and simply judged the act to be a foul.

It is sad that you are saying that these officials are incompetent simply because you do not agree with their judgement.

If you want a good laugh check out this discussion. HS official who doesn't understand the NFL replay system but still feels the need to bash the NFL officials. http://forum.officiating.com/footbal...mi-fumble.html

Whether he disregarded them, or just forgot them, in my opinion he didn't properly apply them. You disagree and that's fine.

Your words, not mine. I haven't said anyone is incompetent. If missing a call made an official incompetent, then we would all be incompetent.

As posters have decided to make this personal, I'm done with this thread.

I read it at the time. It was funny then and it is funny now. But then again when you have posted here for a long time you start to forget that there are others that know as much if not more than you do. ;)

Peace

Hold on.

You just said that the official either "he disregarded them (the memo/bullet points), or just forgot them". Then you say that you are not saying that he is incompetent.

If an official is disregarding or forgetting how he has been instructed to do things, wouldn't that mean he is incompetent?

He will not admit that is what he is saying. He likes to be critical when it is convenient and then get mad at others for saying similar things about officials in other threads. Then he will claim you are full of it when he disagrees with you and you are giving an opinion just like he is.

And yes if you are ignoring or unaware of a directive from your bosses that is incompetence. What else could it be? Someone has to be incompetent based on the position he is taking. After all the entire conference is at fault remember. ;)

Peace

When no one else is calling it that way, you don't call it. It was extremely inconsistent with the normal level of enforcement on post-score celebrations.

I read those bullet points...by what is written by the NCAA the action didn't fit the NCAA's criteria for a flag.

Well did you see the video examples? There have been a lot of videos on these situations and gestures to the crowd that were deemed illegal. Maybe there was not a "salute" but there are many actions including several signals that were said to be illegal and inappropriate.

Peace

Dave Parry and NCAA Rules Committee Chair Connecticut coach Randy Edsall speak up on situation

Peace

Perhaps so, but not one of a simiilar style/magnatude/duration has been called out of the many dozens (maybe hundreds) that I've seen. That is the wrong time to start calling it. That official was inconsistent with what his peers have been calling.

Yes, he did...and he all but said it was not consistent with how it has been called over the season...

Parry also said the rule book supports officials who flagged......

"It's a judgment call, but technically speaking such acts that bring attention to yourself, those are fouls," he said. "Some people would say it's a little too technical, too marginal, but as it's written, officials are covered by the rule."

...

Edsall added he'd like to see more consistency in the way the rule is enforced.

"Well, I do think that there is some inconsistencies maybe between conferences. I think we're getting closer.

The language chosen here is not supportive of the officials. It just gives them a little cover. It is a lot closer to saying...."Yes, by the book, they got it right, but..."

There was no language along the lines of "It was a good call", "they made the right decision", etc.

Let me get this straight. We should not call something that is right just because everyone is wrong, just to be consistent? We are going to blatantly ignore a rule that we have been enforcing because everyone is wrong and we have to be consistent?

You do realize that the examples that the NCAA gave happen during Bowl games mostly? The one of the examples the NCAA used was from a bowl game and was not enforced properly and they asked the officials in the Pre-Season video.

Peace

You also left out the part where he says we have talked about this for years and the Chairman of the Rules Committee who is also a coach at UCONN said it was the right call. You can split hairs over whether it was right or wrong to call, but when there is a rule supporting it and the people are commenting that the rules are there, then why put yourself in that situation?

I am not having a debate only that this was the right call. This was in the rulebook for years.

Peace

I don't know how dead this horse has to get. This was a call some will think was appropriate, some inappropriate due to the circumstances, some too technical, some would have made it, some would have chosen not to call it, and life goes on.

Everbody is entitled to their opinion, but the only only opinions that matter are those of the two field officials who ruled on it. It just doesn't matter whether you might be leaning leniently, or you might believe in strict enforcement UNLESS you happen to be a player or coach associated with the game being worked, then it becomes how much risk you want to accept guessing how your field officials might consider certain behavior.

We each have to make judgments about how what we see applies, of fails to apply, to the rules as we understand them, and we are responsible for those decisions. That's where it ends, and is where it's supposed to end (video replay aside). We may be entitled to our opinion, but that's all it is or ever will be.

I agree with everything you are saying but think the supervisor or advisers also are the people that matter. These officials will have to answer to who hires them as to why this was or was not a good call and if they are OK with it, it really does not matter what we say here.

Peace

The point is that you don't call something with a 1 minute to go in the last game of the season that hasn't been called all season no matter how long it has been in the book. The time to establish a new level of enforcement is the first game of the season.

Have you tracked these guys all season? How do you know THEY have not made THIS call before or that they had even seen the act before?

So you know what these guys have or have not called all season? You know what has or has not been called by others? I have seen these penalties this season. I am not going to say I know for sure what has been called in every game or in every conference game, but I have seen this called this year. So to say one or two officials (in this case) are supposed to not call a blatant violation of the rules does not make sense to me at all. Again the rules are very clear. And this is why there are POEs in all kinds of sports to have officials enforce the rules because of attitudes like this.

I know I had called this personally in a high school game and a player was warned. I did so in the playoffs and did not once think about what happened during the rest of the season or knew what others had called. I think your expectation is unrealistic if we must know what everyone has done. It is possible that a crew in any conference is not totally aware of what others have specifically called unless there is something on the video each week to review.

Peace

I've watched several games a week...every week. I've not seen one case of such a minor gesture called...and have seen much larger gestures also go uncalled. Sure it may have been called somewhere, sometime, but that doesn't make it the norm or consistent with what has been getting called.

What I have see is officials say something to the player...a warning.

We all answer to someone, and longevity often depends on how well you handle that "answering" process. I suspect there are very different levels of answerability at different levels and different areas of the country. Perhaps the best, or at least safest, advice would be, "When in Rome....."

Not only did I see penalties for this year at that level, I have seen them for some years now when this directive was first made. I would not call it the norm as many players are not doing those things and next year they better get ready to have TDs taken away. ;)

Peace

I agree and that level has a higher level of accountability.

Peace

TD taken away only if the foul occurs during a live ball. You may realize this but your comment may lead others to believe dead ball fouls will take away a TD as well and that's not the case. I've heard too many talking headst his week perpetuate this myth.

I was just pointing out a change is a comin', whether folks realize it is a live or dead ball is not a big issue to me when the rule is not here yet. They will see next year the impact of what the committee thinks of these actions (all coaches and administrators I might add). The committee just gave coaches a year to prepare and these situations and to warn or coach their players properly.

Peace

There is very very rarely a situation where the new rule would even have an impact. Players are generally waiting until they get to the end zone to start their displays nowadays. And even the "dives" which are flagged will be enforced as dead ball fouls next year although they start at the 5 yard line sometimes.

What was the problem this rule was formulated to address, and why was it considered a problem?

The whole business about calling att'n to oneself is silly. The game either has spectators or it doesn't. (I'm used to games that hardly anyone watches -- often not even the substitute players.) If it does, guess what?

The whole damn game is about people calling att'n!
Hey, look over here, there's a buncha people running around and doing funny stuff that you wouldn't do in polite company! Seriously, could any of these demonstrations that participants do between downs be any more offensive in appearance than football itself?

If there was a problem with taunting that started fights, that justified a rule. But somehow the problem of taunting slid over into demonstrations of emotion of any kind. Could it be that people were seen to take offense at more and more innocent demonstrations? Is this an example of the heckler's veto?

Sounds a lot like you rendered a judgment on the situation and circumstances you were confronted with INSIDE THE PARTICULAR GAME YOU WERE WORKING. You appear comfortable with YOUR decision and the way it turned out, congratulations.

I doubt you paused, for any great length of time, and carefully pondered all the possible ramifications of the multiple choices at your disposal. It's more likely you make an immediate, instinctive judgment based on your knowledge of the rules, the tone of that game and your personal assessment of that situation, all in the space of a wink of an eye.

Of all the people on this planet, only YOU got to make that judgment because YOU were working that game and YOU happened to be the covering official. Thankfully, you're still pleased with your call, because the only person who really has to be pleased with the call is YOU.

Can't you give the Pinstripe crew the same consideration?

At the end of the day that is all we have as officials. I am sure all of us have made calls and hardly thought of the situation of the game. I know I have been in games where a call was obvious and at a critical moment. One of the big things about being a official is your courage level, which is why some will work the big game (on TV or in the playoffs) and others will only see regular season games or games that have no major significance.

Peace