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-   -   Illegal batting Nevada vs. BSU (https://forum.officiating.com/football/59885-illegal-batting-nevada-vs-bsu.html)

BoomerSooner Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:47am

Illegal batting Nevada vs. BSU
 
Nevada vs. Boise State 3rd Quarter, Nevada lined up for a FG. Kick was blocked, ball never crossed the neutral zone. During the ensuing scramble for the ball a BSU player bats the ball (flag thrown) toward his own end zone where BSU eventually recovers at 10 yd line. It ended up coming back to the spot of the batting with a 15 yd penalty.

Since the ball didn't cross the NZ (no change of possesion) shouldn't the penalty been 15 yards from the previous spot and since the yardage would have led to a first down, Nevada would have been awarded a new series? Just wondering if that one got missed.

TXMike Sat Nov 27, 2010 01:24am

It was a miss. It was a foul against B behind the NZ during a kick play so should have been enforced from prev spot which would have given A a 1st and goal. This is one of the things it seems to me the IR crew (if we are gonna have them) ought to be able to step in and help with. They can stop the game for 5 minutes to determine if a 6 yard pass was completed in bounds or not but here a penalty is so misapplied that possession is mistakenly awarded to the wrong team.

BoomerSooner Sat Nov 27, 2010 01:34am

It didn't click to me until after the next play so it would have been too late if i were the reply official. I went back and watched it again and thought it's so rare to see a blocked kicked actually advanced beyond the line to gain that it probably never entered any of the crew's mind that this would be the proper enforcement.

TXMike Sat Nov 27, 2010 01:44am

I know quite a few Texas HS officials (NCAA rules) who were screaming as soon as the R uttered the words "15 yards from the spot of the foul". You didn't hear us?

chseagle Sat Nov 27, 2010 01:54am

What's the NCAA Rules concerning fans rushing the field before teams are able to do the "good game" handshakes?

TXMike Sat Nov 27, 2010 01:55am

Huh? If the game was over there is no rule

TussAgee11 Sat Nov 27, 2010 02:05am

Not a football guy, I didn't think anything of it when I watched but obviously trust you guys.

So the key to this enforcement is that the ball does not change possession until a) the defense secures possession or b) a kick crosses the line of scrimmage? And since a foul occurred before a change of possession, we enforce from either the spot if past the line of scrimmage or from the line of scrimmage if behind it?

BoomerSooner Sat Nov 27, 2010 02:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXMike (Post 703465)
I know quite a few Texas HS officials (NCAA rules) who were screaming as soon as the R uttered the words "15 yards from the spot of the foul". You didn't hear us?

No the only thing I've heard coming from Texas lately is the sound of tears and sobbing after the way the Longhorns' season ended.

As far as the key to the enforcement on this, the ball passing through the NZ is key to the enforcement of the penalty. I may have confused the issue of possession and the kick crossing the NZ in my original post. The receiving team doesn't take possession on a scrimmage kick until they secure the ball or the ball is dead (ball at rest, kick OOB, downed by the kicking team, etc). If the ball had been deflected and continued through the NZ (rather than being blocked toward the K) and BSU batted the ball, the enforcement spot would have been the spot of the foul. Of course, the ball would remain live and Nevada would have been able to recover (similar to a muffed punt) and had they done so would have declined the penalty to retain possession. Hopefully that clears it up but if someone can do better, I'm glad to learn a better way to explain.

Jay1 Sat Nov 27, 2010 05:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner (Post 703459)
During the ensuing scramble for the ball a BSU player bats the ball (flag thrown) toward his own end zone

I haven't seen the play, so maybe I'm missing something, but how could that be a foul with the bat being toward his own end zone? :confused:

TXMike Sat Nov 27, 2010 06:27am

It was batted towards the end zone the defense was trying to get to not the one they were defending.

This was essentially a "3 and 1" foul. In this specific play situation, it would have qualified for PSK enforcement had it taken place after the kick had crossed the NZ and if spot of foul had been 3 or more yards beyond the NZ. Otherwise it was a simple "3 and 1" foul like so many otehrs in the book.

With_Two_Flakes Sat Nov 27, 2010 07:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXMike (Post 703473)
It was batted towards the end zone the defense was trying to get to not the one they were defending.

That's what had me confused too. So when the original poster said "a BSU player bats the ball toward his own end zone" he actually meant toward the opponents end zone.

BoomerSooner Sat Nov 27, 2010 09:16am

Sorry. As has been pointed out BSU batted it toward the end zone in which they would score or toward Nevada's end zone. :o

Cobra Sat Nov 27, 2010 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TussAgee11 (Post 703468)
So the key to this enforcement is that the ball does not change possession until a) the defense secures possession or b) a kick crosses the line of scrimmage? And since a foul occurred before a change of possession, we enforce from either the spot if past the line of scrimmage or from the line of scrimmage if behind it?

Possession changes when the other team possess the ball.

You are way off on your penalty enforcements. A down is divided into running plays and loose ball plays. A loose ball play includes free and scrimmage kicks, legal forward passes, and fumbles and backward passes in or behind the neutral zone. The action which precedes the fumble, pass, or kick is part of the loose ball play. Holding before a legal forward pass is thrown would be a foul during a loose ball play. All other plays are running plays. A down can have multiple plays. A kickoff (free kick) starts with a loose ball play then turns into a running play once the kick ends.

Knowing the type of play allows you to determine what the basic spot is. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot and for a running play it is the end of the related run.

Fouls by the offense behind the basic spot are penalized from the spot of the foul. Other fouls are penalized from the basic spot. This is called the all but one or 3 and 1 principle.

So this was a loose ball play, the foul was by the defense. Fouls by the defense are penalized from the previous spot.

NFHS rules pretty much always use this principle, while the NFL and NCAA have added more exceptions to it for the purpose of making it easier on the offense. Many times you will see holding in a NFL or NCAA game which occurs before a pass (during a loose ball play) behind the previous spot (basic spot) but the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.

TussAgee11 Sat Nov 27, 2010 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra (Post 703556)
Possession changes when the other team possess the ball.

You are way off on your penalty enforcements. A down is divided into running plays and loose ball plays. A loose ball play includes free and scrimmage kicks, legal forward passes, and fumbles and backward passes in or behind the neutral zone. The action which precedes the fumble, pass, or kick is part of the loose ball play. Holding before a legal forward pass is thrown would be a foul during a loose ball play. All other plays are running plays. A down can have multiple plays. A kickoff (free kick) starts with a loose ball play then turns into a running play once the kick ends.

Knowing the type of play allows you to determine what the basic spot is. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot and for a running play it is the end of the related run.

Fouls by the offense behind the basic spot are penalized from the spot of the foul. Other fouls are penalized from the basic spot. This is called the all but one or 3 and 1 principle.

So this was a loose ball play, the foul was by the defense. Fouls by the defense are penalized from the previous spot.

NFHS rules pretty much always use this principle, while the NFL and NCAA have added more exceptions to it for the purpose of making it easier on the offense. Many times you will see holding in a NFL or NCAA game which occurs before a pass (during a loose ball play) behind the previous spot (basic spot) but the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.

Thanks. Although I don't have the football vocab to "get it" completely, makes a bit more sense now. I have never set foot on a football field as an official, just lurk over here from the baseball board mainly.


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