NCAA: out of bounds or TD when ball hits the pylon?
 

This isn't a theoretical. During the UCLA at Cal game yesterday, Cal's Shane Vereen dove for the pylon. The ball appeared to be over the sideline (before the goal line) before he brought in back in towards the field and hit the pylon. His knee hit the ground with the ball half over the endzone and half out of bounds beyond the goal line. His body never touched any part out of bounds until the ball hit the upright pylon.

The officials called a TD.

We're having an interesting discussion on the meaning of AR 8-2-1, IV:

IV. The ball, in possession of airborne ball carrier A21, crosses the
sideline above the one-yard line, penetrates the plane of the goal line
extended and is then declared dead out of bounds in possession of
A21. RULING: Ball is declared out of bounds at the one-yard line
(Rules 2-11-1 and 4-2-4-e).

What exactly does "goal line extended" mean? I'm thinking it means the extension of the plane of the goal line outside of the sideline, while others seem to think it means that once the ball crosses the sideline before reaching the goal line, it's spotted where it crosses the sideline.

I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

A player is not out of bounds until they either touch out of bounds or ruled out of bound by rule. In this case the runner is nothing until they touch something out of bounds. If forward progress is at issue and they are airborne, then they are considered to be where they crossed the intersection once they have been ruled out of bounds. That is not the case in the play you described. So if they leap and touch the pylon or foot touches, they are for the purposes of this discussion still in-bounds. As it relates to the end zone the ball must cross on the in-bounds side for an airborne player to be awarded a TD. If they are touching the ground, they simply have to reach past the goal line (in-bounds or out of bounds). That is why you hear "Goal line extended" being used because it applies not matter where you are in the field for a player touching in-bounds.

Peace

These guys say ncaa and fed is the same on this question.

NFHS Forum: Pylon plays
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First of all, the Fed rules and the NCAA rules regarding placement and interpretations on plays where a ball touches a pylon are identical. The actual wording of the Fed rules are precise w.r.t. placement of the pylon, but aren't too much help when it comes to ruling on the interaction of a ball with the goal line pylon. They carefully say that the pylon is out of bounds, but they also say in case play 1.2.4 that if the pylon is properly placed, the ball would have to penetrate the plane of the goal line before touching the pylon.

The NCAA rule is much more definitive: "A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line." PERIOD. Note, they don't say "...behind the goal line EXTENDED." They say goal line. Is it? Well, not really, but it's an accepted convention to keep us from having to split hairs. Consider a punt that rolls toward the pylon. If it rolls into the pylon's front face, chances are that it actually crossed the inside edge of the sideline at about the 1" line. Are you going to place it there?

In order to avoid these kinds of problems, both the Fed and NCAA have consistently published rulings that say that a ball, loose or in player possession, that touches a pylon is considered to have touched it in the endzone.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...Mjg5ZDIw&hl=en



Referee NON-Subscriber's Free Sample

SECTION 2. Out of Bounds
Player Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 1. a. A player or an airborne player is out of bounds when any
part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game
official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).
b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.
RULE 4-2 / BALL IN PLAY , DEAD BALL, OUT OF BOUNDS FR-81
Held Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the
ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is
on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.
Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores
a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game
official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.
b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.
c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is
declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.
Out of Bounds at Forward Point
ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not
cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point
when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R.
8-5-1-I).
b. A touchdown may be scored if the ball is inbounds and has broken the
plane of the goal line before or simultaneous to the ball carrier going out
of bounds.
c. A receiver who is in the opponent’s end zone and contacting the ground
is credited with a completion if he reaches over the sideline or end line
and catches a legal pass.
d. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between
the end lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-II and A.R.
8-5-1-X).
e. When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).

http://www.ncaapublications.com/prod...loads/FR09.pdf

Here's a screenshot from the video
 

The ball was mostly over the sideline at the time the ball hit the pylon.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6246/vereen.png

That is a TD. The player crossed the goal line while airborne, unless there is something that happens right before this picture was shot (which you cannot determine everything by this picture).

Peace

In order to touch the inside edge of the pylon, the ball must be in the endzone. Unless the player was out of bounds prior to that moment, you have a TD.

Here we go . . . What if the ball touched the OUTSIDE of the pylon?

Pylon-Gate Hands Michigan a Score -- NCAAFB FanHouse


Player Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 1. a. A player or an airborne player is out of bounds when any
part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game
official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).
b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.


Held Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the
ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is
on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.

Post one. This is wrong.

If the ball hits the pylon on the inside edge, it has already crossed the goal line and is a TD. If it hits the pylon on the front edge, it has already crossed out of bounds and is not a TD.

Don't make it more difficult than it has to be... to answer your question, how did it get there? In front of the pylon? OOB before reaching the EZ.

This doesn't show us what we need to know... but it appears to me that the ball hit the pylon on the side, not the front. TD.

From what I understand in NCAA, if the ball touches the pylon (irrespective of which side), it is considered out of bounds beyond (or behind) the goal line. I will dig into the book and some interpretations at lunch time to see if I can find a reference but this may be a philosophy in an effort not to be overly technical.

Sort of. When it hits the pylon, it is out of bounds... but what matters is whether it had already crossed the goal line in bounds v. going out of bounds before crossing the goal line... hence the sides of the pylon mattering.

And that is what I'm saying. In practice, it does not matter, it will always be considered a touchdown. I will see what I can dig up in support.

But that's NOT what I'm saying. It is not always a touchdown in practice. If it hits the front of the pylon, it is not a touchdown - this is why you see players diving and reaching the ball around the inside part - to score. If you hit the front, you did not score.

Understand first of all that I know nothing about NCAA, I'm talking strictly FED here, but according to the interpretations I've seen, when a ball in player possession touches the pylon on either side or front, the ruling is touchdown - the ball has either broken the plane of the endzone proper or the goal line extended. There is nothing to suggest that the ball cannot enter the enzone from the side instead of the front. Example, a player dives for the EZ, and after having last touched IB, is over OOB beyond the goal line, reaches out and touches the ball down inside the EZ from the side - is this not a TD? If so, what would make touching the pylon from the side any different?

What I am saying is that this is incorrect based upon interpretation.

I believe this also applies to any other touching of the pylon like on a kick or a player touches the pylon in some other way that it is considered in the end zone. I have never heard that the side someone or something touches matters.

Peace

And I'm talking NCAA. (In the scenario you mention, no, it's not a TD in NCAA)

You work both, so I'm assuming you're talking FED here. In NCAA, the other touchings you mention do not have the same rules as a ballcarrier crossing out of bounds near the goal line - there is a separate rule for that entirely, and that rule is the crux of the discussion. For anyone else, the pylon is simply part of OOB - you would rule on the play exactly as if the person touching the pylon was touching the ground.

Based upon what interpretation?

4.2.4.e: When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborn as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.

AR 8-2-1-IV: The ball, in posession of airborne ball carrier A21, crosses the sideline above the one-yard line, penetrates the plane of the goal line extended, and is then declared dead out of bounds in possession of A21. RULING: Ball is declared out of bounds at the one-yard line.

If you hit the front of the pylon, the ball has already gone OOB - and should be spotted where it went OOB. If you hit the side of the pylon, the ball has already gone into the endzone IN bounds - and is a TD.

That is what I will work on digging up. :)

Logically though it makes sense to me because the pylon is at the intersection of the sideline and the goaline. By rule, a loose ball that hits the pylon is considered out of bounds behind the goal line which tells me that if a ball hits a pylon, at least part of it crossed over the goal line.

What I am talking about once you hit the pylon whatever touches the pylon is in the end zone and out of bounds. Never can remember any reference or any talk where the touching takes place. Of course there are differences slightly for a ball carrier then other things as it matters when you touch the pylon and sometimes who, but the sides I have never heard matters. My point is this should be a TD no matter what side the runner touched the pylon with the ball while they were airborne. Again I would have to see a rules reference to suggest otherwise.

Peace

Yes, but this is only true because the rule regarding a loose ball does not have the OOB rule that a ball carrier does. A loose ball is not OOB when it's airborne until it hits something (player (unairborne, of course), pylon, ground, non-player, chain, etc) and an airborne looseball can be "saved" for lack of a better word.

I quoted you the rule and the AR. If the ball hits the front, then it HAS to have gone out of bounds first.

(Consider ... if this is wrong, why would players be trying to keep the ball in bounds as they approach the pylon in the air? You see this all the time.)

I don't know that these situations are really all that different though. Consider this, a loose ball (other than a forward pass or forward fumble) that goes out of bounds will be spotted at the point where it crosses the sideline, not where it eventually strikes something that causes it to be out of bounds.

Say you have a punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and due to an unusual circumstance (wind, funny spin, etc), the ball comes back and strikes the pylon on the outward face of the pylon. You are going to have a touchback by rule, even though the ball crossed the sideline at the B-3.

Now we look at a situation where an airborne ball carrier extends the ball across the sideline and touches the same face on the pylon with the ball. Does it stand to reason that this situation is treated the same, that the ball crosses the goal line itself?

I think it does.

You just contradicted yourself. You say the loose ball is out of bounds at the spot where it went out of bounds and then illustrate with a case where it isn't. You're right, this is a touchback, by rule, even though it crossed the sideline at the B3. The rules for a grounded loose ball are not the same as for a ball in the arms of a ballcarrier. (Note that an UNgrounded punt also has a special rule to apply so that it does get marked where it went out of bounds).

No. There is a SPECIFIC rule for a ball carried by a ball carrier (posted above). These 2 cases are by definition treated differently.

But if I were to try to convince you, I'd only repeat myself. I've posted the rule and the AR. If an official were to rule that a ball in possession of the ball carrier that struck the front of the pylon was a TD, in a game where review was possible, it would be overturned.

No I didn't. I provided an example that is contrary to the normal convention. Exactly the same as a ball in possession touching a pylon.

As an aside, how is an ungrounded punt any different from a grounded punt? They are both spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, not where they touched out of bounds.

You posted an AR that was similar to this situation but not the same.

A question for you. Do you consider the pylon as a part of the goal line or the goal line extended?

Here's what you said: "Consider this, a loose ball (other than a forward pass or forward fumble) that goes out of bounds will be spotted at the point where it crosses the sideline, not where it eventually strikes something that causes it to be out of bounds.

Say you have a punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and due to an unusual circumstance (wind, funny spin, etc), the ball comes back and strikes the pylon on the outward face of the pylon. You are going to have a touchback by rule, even though the ball crossed the sideline at the B-3."

IOW - 1) A loose ball that goes out of bounds will be spoted at the point where it crosses the sideline.
2) A punt that bounces and crosses the sideline at the B-3 and comes back and strikes the pylon... is a touchback by rule."
These statements are contradictory.

Hmmm. Made me re-read. You are correct. The ball is out of bounds at the crossing point. Meaning that the play above the ball should be at the B-3 if the official has the perfect view AND the cohones to call it that way.

No. (If you meant that as an either or, the answer is neither).

Yes they are, but that's the rule book for you. I see a loose ball that touches the pylon as an exception to the general rule of a ball crossing the sideline plane.

I'll leave the rest alone for now until I can find that reference. :)

Fair enough. Here's Rule 4.2.3 B and C, which are the relevant rules, I believe.

B: A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. (So at the moment this ball hits the pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line).
C: If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line (like this one did, at the 3) and is THEN declared out of bounds (which happens when it hit the pylon behind the goal line), it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

Continuing with the loose ball discussion:

AR 8-6-1-I

I. Team A’s fumble strikes the pylon at the intersection of Team B’s
goal line and sideline. RULING: Touchback. Team B’s ball at the
20-yard line (Rule 7-2-4-b).

Absolutely, but this ball didn't do anything we've been talking about. It doesn't say it went OOB before hitting the pylon.

The simplicity of play leads me to believe it doesn't matter.

Ask Tommy, or Pete.

Sorry to butt in, but I have a question - in the "OOB behind the goal line" scenario, which happens first? Is the ball OOB and then behind the goal? or is it behind the goal and then OOB? IMO, even if those 2 occurred simultaneously, behind the goal is very important to the discussion. The ball became dead when it was declared OOB behind the goal line. Shouldn't this be a touchback?

The Los Angeles Times had a better shot from about the same angle, but taken with a still camera. And he initially hit the inside corner of the pylon.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-10/56646879.jpg

I'd rather ask Rom who states it's a TD.

Rom Gilbert Football Home Page

see #8

The play at #8 is not detailed enough to illustrate the difference.

Let me put it this way... if striking the pylon with the ball from ANY direction was enough to create a TD, we would see players trying to tap the ball into the outside edge of the pylon rather than what we actually DO see - which is players trying their best to reach the ball INSIDE the pylon, thus crossing the goalline before going out of bounds by striking the pylon.

Perhaps it is detailed enough in that Mr Gilbert chooses to not see any difference between inside, outside, in front, on top or any other possibility. I'll take his word for it that hitting the pylon means just that.

I try not to let the actions of players and their very limited knowledge of the rules influence my decisions regarding the rules.

Fair point, but surely somewhere a player would have been award a TD on a replay upon hitting the outside of the pylon, and word would have spread. Players don't know all the rules... surely! But the know the ones that matter, as do coaches - and I assure you TD vs no TD matters.

I've tried emailing the 2 I know that would KNOW this for sure, but have not gotten responses.

Who wants to draft the e-mail to Rogers Redding? I don't have quite enough pull for that one. :D

Who is the official chapter rule interpreter or does this go higher to somebody like the district rep?