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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 12:55pm
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12 players on the field after a timeout

This one had me second guessing myself. What would you do?

Team A is lined up for a PAT when they realize they only have 10 players, they call a timeout. After the timeout, they line up for the extra point and I blow the ready for play. I begin counting the number of offensive players and hear a player yell "We have 12, we have 12". As I verify that there are indeed 12, a substitute begins running off the field. The snap doesn't happend until after the 12 man is off the field.

I let the play happen without a flag. On second thought, could I have been justified for calling a dead ball Illegal Subsitiution? SHOULD I have called IS? or just let the play happen as no one gained an advantage?

Your thoughts are appreciated.
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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 12:58pm
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Which ruleset.

I believe most of us can tell you the answer for either set... but the reason is different. I'll ask you this: What rule did they break (the actual words of the rule, not the summarized version most of us have in our heads because it applies 99% of the time).
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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 01:08pm
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I was working high school under fed rules.

But I'd love to hear the NCAA explanation as well.
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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Which ruleset.

I believe most of us can tell you the answer for either set... but the reason is different. I'll ask you this: What rule did they break (the actual words of the rule, not the summarized version most of us have in our heads because it applies 99% of the time).
Yeah, that's the direction my answer was heading, too.
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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 01:25pm
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Originally Posted by john_faz View Post
I was working high school under fed rules.

But I'd love to hear the NCAA explanation as well.
OK ... I'll ask again though: What rule did they break?
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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 01:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Which ruleset.

I believe most of us can tell you the answer for either set... but the reason is different. I'll ask you this: What rule did they break (the actual words of the rule, not the summarized version most of us have in our heads because it applies 99% of the time).
Most people do NF here whether you want to admit that or not.

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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_faz View Post
This one had me second guessing myself. What would you do?

Team A is lined up for a PAT when they realize they only have 10 players, they call a timeout. After the timeout, they line up for the extra point and I blow the ready for play. I begin counting the number of offensive players and hear a player yell "We have 12, we have 12". As I verify that there are indeed 12, a substitute begins running off the field. The snap doesn't happend until after the 12 man is off the field.

I let the play happen without a flag. On second thought, could I have been justified for calling a dead ball Illegal Subsitiution? SHOULD I have called IS? or just let the play happen as no one gained an advantage?

Your thoughts are appreciated.
CANADIAN RULING:

No foul.
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Old Mon Oct 04, 2010, 08:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_faz View Post
This one had me second guessing myself. What would you do?

Team A is lined up for a PAT when they realize they only have 10 players, they call a timeout. After the timeout, they line up for the extra point and I blow the ready for play. I begin counting the number of offensive players and hear a player yell "We have 12, we have 12". As I verify that there are indeed 12, a substitute begins running off the field. The snap doesn't happend until after the 12 man is off the field.

I let the play happen without a flag. On second thought, could I have been justified for calling a dead ball Illegal Subsitiution? SHOULD I have called IS? or just let the play happen as no one gained an advantage?

Your thoughts are appreciated.
I've got a flag for illegal substitution. 12 in the formation after the ready for play.
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 11:19am
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Originally Posted by BroKen62 View Post
I've got a flag for illegal substitution. 12 in the formation after the ready for play.
Correct.

No "substitution" was made after the RFP was whistled....which would've allowed the new 3 second provision to carry into it with one making for the sideline.
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 11:39am
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Well during the TO a substitution was made. As such when they are about to hike the ball and you have 12 men on the field, I would blow the whistle and call a substitution foul and assess 5 yards on a dead ball play. To do otherwise would cause an IP live ball foul and 15 yards assuming the 12th player did not make it off. IMHO Jim

Last edited by jemiller; Tue Oct 05, 2010 at 11:40am. Reason: clarity
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 11:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jemiller View Post
Well during the TO a substitution was made. As such when they are about to hike the ball and you have 12 men on the field, I would blow the whistle and call a substitution foul and assess 5 yards on a dead ball play. To do otherwise would cause an IP live ball foul and 15 yards assuming the 12th player did not make it off. IMHO Jim
If my 12th is trying to get off the field...he is not participating. No one I know calls the 15 yard Illegal Participation for a player trying to get off the field.
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 12:17pm
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3.7 COMMENT: A procedure has been adopted to provide an equitable penalty
as it relates to illegal substitution. The following are examples of the most common
situations and rulings:
1. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not
get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously
with the snap and the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.
(3-7-4; 10-4-2a)
2. If a replaced player does not leave the field within three-seconds, it is a
dead-ball, illegal-substitution foul. (3-7-1)
3. If a replaced player or substitute goes off the field on the wrong side of the field
during the down, it is an illegal substitution (live-ball foul at snap). (10-4-4)
4. If an entering substitute is not on his team’s side of the neutral zone at the
snap, illegal substitution is considered to have occurred simultaneously
with the snap. If he then participates, it becomes a live-ball foul, illegal participation.
(3-7-6; 9-6-4c)
5. When a replaced player or substitute leaves on the wrong side of the field
or goes across the end line prior to the snap, it is illegal substitution. (3-7-
2; 10-4-4)
6. If a replaced player substitute enters the field during the down, but does not
participate, it is a foul for illegal substitution by a nonplayer, a 5-yard penalty. (3-7-6; 10-4-5)
In addition, the following chart should help officials distinguish the actions of
various individuals who enter the field, during the down, but do not participate.
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canned Heat View Post
Correct.

No "substitution" was made after the RFP was whistled....which would've allowed the new 3 second provision to carry into it with one making for the sideline.
Note that 3-7-1 says nothing about the RFP; all it says is "between downs."

If the coach comes onto the field for the timeout, the wing for that sideline should be watching the huddle. As soon as it has 12 players and no one's leaving, the covering official needs to get the coach's attention and tell him he's got 12 players - get one off. If the coach ignores the request, count three seconds (silently) and toss the flag; in practice, this doesn't happen, as the coach's response is nearly always "WHO'S OUT HERE WHO'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE?!!"

If the conference was taken at the sideline, then R & U are counting as they come away from the sideline. I count to 12, check that my partner isn't signaling 11, count to 12 again, and then tick off three seconds in my head. If no one's leaving by then, whistle and flag.

The original poster hadn't even counted to 12 once before the replaced player starting running off. No flag from me.
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 05:02pm
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FED must be significantly different than NCAA in this case then. Substitute has a specific definition. Unless your definition significantly differs from ours, there are no substitutes on this play at all - thus no illegal substitutes either. NCAA has a rule about 12 in the huddle - but even that would not apply to this play.

NCAA - I have nothing on this play, regardless of how long it takes him to realize his error, as long as he's off the field before the snap.
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Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 07:38pm
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The NC supervisor informed us that we should flag IS and kill if A goes into formation with more than 11 players.
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