12 players on the field after a timeout
 

This one had me second guessing myself. What would you do?

Team A is lined up for a PAT when they realize they only have 10 players, they call a timeout. After the timeout, they line up for the extra point and I blow the ready for play. I begin counting the number of offensive players and hear a player yell "We have 12, we have 12". As I verify that there are indeed 12, a substitute begins running off the field. The snap doesn't happend until after the 12 man is off the field.

I let the play happen without a flag. On second thought, could I have been justified for calling a dead ball Illegal Subsitiution? SHOULD I have called IS? or just let the play happen as no one gained an advantage?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Which ruleset.

I believe most of us can tell you the answer for either set... but the reason is different. I'll ask you this: What rule did they break (the actual words of the rule, not the summarized version most of us have in our heads because it applies 99% of the time).

I was working high school under fed rules.

But I'd love to hear the NCAA explanation as well.

Yeah, that's the direction my answer was heading, too.

OK ... I'll ask again though: What rule did they break?

Most people do NF here whether you want to admit that or not. ;)

Peace

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

No foul.

I've got a flag for illegal substitution. 12 in the formation after the ready for play.

Correct.

No "substitution" was made after the RFP was whistled....which would've allowed the new 3 second provision to carry into it with one making for the sideline.

Well during the TO a substitution was made. As such when they are about to hike the ball and you have 12 men on the field, I would blow the whistle and call a substitution foul and assess 5 yards on a dead ball play. To do otherwise would cause an IP live ball foul and 15 yards assuming the 12th player did not make it off. IMHO Jim

If my 12th is trying to get off the field...he is not participating. No one I know calls the 15 yard Illegal Participation for a player trying to get off the field.

3.7 COMMENT: A procedure has been adopted to provide an equitable penalty
as it relates to illegal substitution. The following are examples of the most common
situations and rulings:

1. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not
get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously
with the snap and the penalty is enforced from the previous spot.
(3-7-4; 10-4-2a)
2. If a replaced player does not leave the field within three-seconds, it is a
dead-ball, illegal-substitution foul. (3-7-1)
3. If a replaced player or substitute goes off the field on the wrong side of the field
during the down, it is an illegal substitution (live-ball foul at snap). (10-4-4)
4. If an entering substitute is not on his team’s side of the neutral zone at the
snap, illegal substitution is considered to have occurred simultaneously
with the snap. If he then participates, it becomes a live-ball foul, illegal participation.
(3-7-6; 9-6-4c)
5. When a replaced player or substitute leaves on the wrong side of the field
or goes across the end line prior to the snap, it is illegal substitution. (3-7-
2; 10-4-4)
6. If a replaced player substitute enters the field during the down, but does not
participate, it is a foul for illegal substitution by a nonplayer, a 5-yard penalty. (3-7-6; 10-4-5)

In addition, the following chart should help officials distinguish the actions of
various individuals who enter the field, during the down, but do not participate.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8...01005at116.png

Note that 3-7-1 says nothing about the RFP; all it says is "between downs."

If the coach comes onto the field for the timeout, the wing for that sideline should be watching the huddle. As soon as it has 12 players and no one's leaving, the covering official needs to get the coach's attention and tell him he's got 12 players - get one off. If the coach ignores the request, count three seconds (silently) and toss the flag; in practice, this doesn't happen, as the coach's response is nearly always "WHO'S OUT HERE WHO'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE?!!"

If the conference was taken at the sideline, then R & U are counting as they come away from the sideline. I count to 12, check that my partner isn't signaling 11, count to 12 again, and then tick off three seconds in my head. If no one's leaving by then, whistle and flag.

The original poster hadn't even counted to 12 once before the replaced player starting running off. No flag from me.

FED must be significantly different than NCAA in this case then. Substitute has a specific definition. Unless your definition significantly differs from ours, there are no substitutes on this play at all - thus no illegal substitutes either. NCAA has a rule about 12 in the huddle - but even that would not apply to this play.

NCAA - I have nothing on this play, regardless of how long it takes him to realize his error, as long as he's off the field before the snap.

The NC supervisor informed us that we should flag IS and kill if A goes into formation with more than 11 players.

What rule says there can't be 12 in the formation after the ready for play?

3.7.1 Situation B COMMENT: . . .if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds.
We have been instructed that any time we observe 12 in the formation after the ready, we "blow it and throw it" - dead ball, illegal substitution. Most of the time we catch this type of illegal substitution in a "mass change" of players, such as defense taking over, kicking team running out, etc. We have been instructed to use the RFP as a reference point for enforcement.

Which you've been told doesn't mean much here if you don't have a rule to back it up. :)

If you have 12 players come on the field after a TO, there's no sub, there's no replaced player, hence there's no penalty.

May not mean much to you, but it must mean something to NFHS or they wouldn't have put the comment in the casebook. Are you so married to the rules that you can't apply common sense in regard to the spirit? In regard to your last comment, how would you handle that? IP all the time?

You've chopped the FED caseplay - can you include it all so I know the part you posted wasn't taken out of context?

I'm having trouble understanding how one would (in FED) call this an illegal substitution. After a TO, there are no subs or replaced players unless someone enters after a huddle or formation. And yes, I would not flag this at all (by rule I can't - there's no foul here) and if they ran the play with 12, it's IP.

So basically, this is going against what everyone said on this thread regarding nearly the same scenario.

http://forum.officiating.com/footbal...icipation.html

Sure, no problem.
*3.7.1 SITUATION B: A number of team substitutes enter the field between
downs. The officials do not recognize that one replaced player does not leave the field within three seconds. When the ball is snapped: (a) B12 is attempting to get off the field, or (b) A12 is in the formation as an extra lineman. RULING: In (a), it is an illegal substitution foul and in (b) it is illegal participation. COMMENT: In a related situation, if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds. However, if the official’s count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave within three seconds as required. (3-7-4; 9-
6-4c)
The question at our meeting was the definition of the word, "imminent" and the direction from the state was that if, after the ready for play, an official discovers 12 in the formation, it's a dead ball foul for illegal substitution, instead of allowing the ball to be snapped and then getting them for IP.

Why not? 3-7-1 still applies, right?
ART. 1 . . . Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace
players. Replaced players shall leave the field within three seconds.

I think NFHS probably needs to address this point, since I'm fairly sure they don't want us flagging a team for IS during a time-out. ;)

Thanks!!!
Therein lies the rub. Substitute and replaced player have specific definitions. This applies to normal between-play action. This would not apply on the first play of a half, or after a COP or Timeout. There are no substitutes; no "replaced players" in the OP.

Every substitution occurs between downs, and every substitution involves substitutes and replaced players. I don't see anything that excepts COP or time-outs.

That discussion never really brought up a time-out or beginning of quarter scenario. It was really differentiating between IP/IS on A vs B, and was a case where there WERE substitutes and replaced players.

If this rule is meant to be applied during timeouts, it's the first I've heard of it. Surely we're not watching players entering the field during a time out and counting to 3. The players that come on the field after a timeout are not replacing anyone. That is the main difference between this situation and the normal between-play substitution.

Exactly what I said in post 23. But I don't see anything that restricts the scope of 3-7-1.


You can't have a substitution without substitutes and replaced players. During a time-out we don't pay attention to that, but it's still a substitution.

I do see your point. Time to re-crack open my book.

Eh. You use only NCAA, right? I doubt they have this problem, which isn't terribly serious because nobody (well, nobody I know) would ever call a dead-ball IS in the middle of a time-out.

Yes... but due to the unfriendly and unhelpful responses from one member, I bothered to have someone send me last year's FED book. :)

Let's go back to the comment in the FED casebook for just a moment:
COMMENT: In a related situation, if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds.

I don't see why this would not apply to any of the situations you suggest, but let's use the TO as an example, since it's listed. Assuming team A had 11 before the TO, it's not much of a stretch to consider that A12 is a substitute after the TO in the same way he would be considered such "during the normal between play action." Nothing in the rule suggests that the interval between downs cannot include a TO. So, according to this caseplay, if after a TO 12 players come onto the field, nobody tries to leave, then after 3 seconds we are supposed to blow it dead, throw a flag for dead-ball, IS. Granted, the RFP designation was given to us before they put in the 3-second stipulation, so I'll withdraw the RFP comment and stick with the 3-second timeframe, but still, I've got dead-ball IS and not "allow the play to happen and call IP."

Correct...however, there are several references that are very similar minus the TO. I don't see why or where the TO makes a bit of difference, it's still a substitution between downs.

So the RFP blows at the conclusion of the one minute TO interval....it's the end of the TO, but not the down until the snap. There HAS been a substitution, obviously because there were 11 and now there's 12.

So you're saying, if they re-align and start to get into formation after the TO...and you or your covering official counts 12, you'd sooner let them get off the play and hammer them with 15 than call the 5 yard IS..? Not only that, it's almost a sure bet at the upper levels that the offense will probably realize they have one too many (and probably call a second TO), then will stand there trying to figure out who shouldn't be in there, and the opposing coaching staff will be screaming that there's 12 out there when they see the debacle going on (not that this matters), but yet you'd have nothing...? Do you grant the second TO after they were standing there longer than 3 seconds?

That's a 5 yard IS to me. And it falls into the same exact category as the standard IS like a player not leaving the huddle and having 12 with no one running off, or running off after a lengthy delay. IMO, some of you are trying to split hairs (with what I don't know) because of the TO designation. A substitution between downs with a Timeout is still a substitution between downs. If someone can find the rule that states TEAM A can have 12 on the field extended for longer than the 3 second swap-out, I'd really like to see it.....because it's not in my book. Just my 2 cents.