The Official Forum - 12 players on the field after a timeout

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- - 12 players on the field after a timeout (https://forum.officiating.com/football/59265-12-players-field-after-timeout.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 695168)

Eh. You use only NCAA, right? I doubt they have this problem, which isn't terribly serious because nobody (well, nobody I know) would ever call a dead-ball IS in the middle of a time-out.

Yes... but due to the unfriendly and unhelpful responses from one member, I bothered to have someone send me last year's FED book. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 695145)

Thanks!!!
Therein lies the rub. Substitute and replaced player have specific definitions. This applies to normal between-play action. This would not apply on the first play of a half, or after a COP or Timeout. There are no substitutes; no "replaced players" in the OP.

Let's go back to the comment in the FED casebook for just a moment:
COMMENT: In a related situation, if the covering official’s count of players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave within three seconds.

I don't see why this would not apply to any of the situations you suggest, but let's use the TO as an example, since it's listed. Assuming team A had 11 before the TO, it's not much of a stretch to consider that A12 is a substitute after the TO in the same way he would be considered such "during the normal between play action." Nothing in the rule suggests that the interval between downs cannot include a TO. So, according to this caseplay, if after a TO 12 players come onto the field, nobody tries to leave, then after 3 seconds we are supposed to blow it dead, throw a flag for dead-ball, IS. Granted, the RFP designation was given to us before they put in the 3-second stipulation, so I'll withdraw the RFP comment and stick with the 3-second timeframe, but still, I've got dead-ball IS and not "allow the play to happen and call IP."

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 695148)

That discussion never really brought up a time-out or beginning of quarter scenario. It was really differentiating between IP/IS on A vs B, and was a case where there WERE substitutes and replaced players.

Correct...however, there are several references that are very similar minus the TO. I don't see why or where the TO makes a bit of difference, it's still a substitution between downs.

So the RFP blows at the conclusion of the one minute TO interval....it's the end of the TO, but not the down until the snap. There HAS been a substitution, obviously because there were 11 and now there's 12.

So you're saying, if they re-align and start to get into formation after the TO...and you or your covering official counts 12, you'd sooner let them get off the play and hammer them with 15 than call the 5 yard IS..? Not only that, it's almost a sure bet at the upper levels that the offense will probably realize they have one too many (and probably call a second TO), then will stand there trying to figure out who shouldn't be in there, and the opposing coaching staff will be screaming that there's 12 out there when they see the debacle going on (not that this matters), but yet you'd have nothing...? Do you grant the second TO after they were standing there longer than 3 seconds?

That's a 5 yard IS to me. And it falls into the same exact category as the standard IS like a player not leaving the huddle and having 12 with no one running off, or running off after a lengthy delay. IMO, some of you are trying to split hairs (with what I don't know) because of the TO designation. A substitution between downs with a Timeout is still a substitution between downs. If someone can find the rule that states TEAM A can have 12 on the field extended for longer than the 3 second swap-out, I'd really like to see it.....because it's not in my book. Just my 2 cents.