"Hand grenade" Celebration
 

Not sure if you are familiar with this one or not. This is where a player "pulls the pin" on the football throws it in the air and then the remaining players fall down when the ball hits the ground.

A88 scores a touchdown.

The remaining 10 players join in on the celebration. A88 "pulls the pin." The remaining fall down.

Charging all 11 players with an USC or just A88?

Be prety hard to call fouls on 11 players. I'm for flagging the guy who tossed the grenade.

You carry 11 flags with you? :)

Also, if I'm doing the math right, :rolleyes: I guess B could take seven of them on the try (which would be from A's 6 & 3/4th yard line) and use the other five on the kick off (which would be from K's 1 & 9/16ths yard line.)

It wouldn't go BANG if A88 hadn't pulled the pin. I figure it's his fault so he gets the flag.

Gotta stamp this out amongst players, grenades are reserved for the officials assessor to throw at the crew in his write-up if they huddle up when they shouldn't - "one grenade could get you all!".

Is proximity of the players of the same team a decisive factor as to whether they've joined the celebration and hence made it excessive? Or just the fact that they all knew what to do?

After I stopped laughing, I would probably just flag the kid that scored the TD. He started the act. ;)

Peace

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

We'd just assess 1 OC penalty.

A stretch would be to assess 2: one for A88 and one for the other actions.

The fact that it was choreographed and not a "spontaneous celebration".

as is taking a knee to pray and pointing a finger to the sky!

If you say so. :rolleyes:

Pointing to the sky and praying are just as choreographed as anything else!!!

Call them all or none!

Yes of course, they are exactly the same. :rolleyes:

This is the type ridiculous logic that could ruin a great game and is currently trying to rip our nation apart.

What's your point other than trying to create a 100+ post whizzing contest?

Are you going to flag this?

Not in my game...!

What if A88 just throws the grenade and no one goes down? Is that still a flag? Where do you draw the LINE!!!!

One finger in the air is fine, unless it is the wrong finger! 3 fingers and the kid is number 3 do you flag that? Chest bumps?

If A88 just throw a grenade and nobody fell down I probably wouldn't know it was a hand grenade. Take a knee to pray real quick is not an unsporting act IMO! We all must dry our own lines in the sand.

The rule has nothing to do with sporting act, it is about drawing attention to oneself!

That's my thought (well, I used "draw" in my thought, but still...). Sometimes, you just have to officiate. :shrug:

IMO this is getting pretty ticky-tack. We don't want to over-officiate.

The difference is not the choreography, but the fact that multiple players were involved in the skit in the first situation.

Now ... here's where I'm going to get blasted, but I'm prepared.

Honestly, every time I see someone do the pray and point thing, I'm thinking the guy is a showboat. Look at me! I'm religious! A truly humble man would not do this. Like God is the reason he scored. Give me a break - what about the equally religious safety you just toasted. God favors you over him? Like Don Henley says,

"And we pray to our Lord, who we know is American. He reigns from on high. He speaks to us through middlemen and he shepherds his flock. We sing out and we praise his name. He supports us in war; he presides over football games."

Ludicrous. And the praying and pointing is just another version of "Look at me"

Unless the player thinks he's god (which is not entirely out of the question), he's not trying to draw attention to himself.

Why's he doing it then? Does he really think that if he waits to thank God in private, that God won't notice or realize he's referring to the TD he just scored? It is ABSOLUTELY trying to draw attention to himself.

Thanks Tanner. :p

religious??
 

So we are going to question a religious act? Next will we bring race into it? A choregraphed celebration is not a spontaneous celebration....15 yards USC.

I will agree that some might just be doing it to showboat, but what about the kid that is truley religious (Time Tebow type)? That is a slippery slope that I don't want to go down.

It's not really a slippery slope. I'm still not flagging it anyway. I'm just thinking showboat.

I probably don't flag the choreographed grenade either until his teammates join in.

It is our job to judge each act on its own merits...I don't think we can lump all situations after touchdowns into one category.

Then flag it. Who cares what you do, but EVERYONE ELSE is not. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

Peace

I am fine with "you" doing that...that is "your" line in the sand. My line is just a few miles right of yours.

I think you're taking this backward. The religious act as stated is obviously choreographed, and not spontaneous... That doesn't (in my book) make it illegal ... so it's not the choreography or lack of spontaneity that makes the first post illegal - it's the fact that he involved teammates in this choreography.

I kind of thought we were mostly in agreement until this one. How does my line differ from yours?

What if he simulates a nuclear weapon instead of a hand grenade? Where does the insanity end? :D

c. Any delayed, excessive or prolonged act by which a player attempts to
focus attention upon himself


9.5.1 SITUATION C: B1 intercepts A1’s pass and returns it 95 yards for the goahead
score. After entering the end zone, B1 (a) does a series of back flips, or (b)
runs toward his team box, then stops and struts back and forth in front of this
team’s fans. RULING: An unsportsmanlike foul in both (a) and (b), penalized from
the succeeding spot. The touchdown stands.

How is either the grenade toss (without the teammates involved) or the Look at me I'm Religious showboat either delayed, excessive, or prolonged?

Here's where I see a problem...

Sitch A: player does what Welpe says, mimes the creation and detonation of a nuclear weapon, taking about 10-12 seconds. We're ALL going to flag this.
Sitch B: player kneels down and prays for 10-12 seconds. Who is going to flag that? It's obviously prolonged. The ref that flags that is more likely to get reprimanded after the fact than told he did the right thing.

And that's just wrong.

Question. Does the celebration include the process to enrich the uranium or are we assuming that was already done on the previous down?

10-12 seconds... I'm thinking it must have been done in advance, perhaps in the huddle.

Definitely needs a flag then. There was malicious intent. Possibly flagrant.

If it involves a centrifuge, we probably have a 1-3-7 violation. :mad:

a. Baiting or taunting acts or words or insignia worn which engenders ill will.
NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed
to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the
basis of race, religion, gender or national origin.

9.5.1 SITUATION A: In the process of scoring a touchdown, A1: (a) holds and
waves the ball overhead the last 10 yards; or (b) after crossing the goal line, he
momentarily raises the ball overhead, but then quickly drops it to the ground.
RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct in (a), but no foul in (b).

Could the finger pointing be taunting?

It doesn't, just trying to lighten the mood a bit. :)

+1

I would say if the player drops to he knee and points up to his God quickly it would fall under letter (B)...thoughts?

He isn't pointing he finger at anyone...just skyward.

How do you know they didn't just get it from some Libyans in exchange for a shiny bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts?

So...taunting God?

Hey John, it sounds like you're trying to dig for a reason to call this a foul. Not sure why ... but how about this.

You felt that the player was taunting God by pointing up. You swear you heard him mumble, "Hah! See that God, even you couldn't stop me!"

They did... but luckily Teen Wolf went back in time to fix that problem.

We have had this called against us so it must be a foul, no?:)

Well that was plutonium if I remember correctly.

Great, this thread is probably on a DHS watchlist now. :rolleyes:

Well, I try. :D

More than likely by now we've flagged a computer at Homeland Security. I wonder if this entire thread made it to the bossman's desk for review. :p

Edit:

LOL... thinking the same thing.

So very true.

So not being able to pray or point to god after a touchdown is more proof we are doomed as a country? You guys need to reevaluate what you are thinking.:cool:

Who said America was doomed? Doomed implies a guarantee. What was said was "trying". Big difference.

I'm saying that America isn't as good as it was 15 years ago. And 20 years before that. And...

When was it at it's best? Not sure, but it certainly isn't 2010.

I suppose it depends on who you ask. I would disagree 100%. There are countless things that are better now than 5, 15, 35 years ago. Ask someone who believed anything different than the norm (or looked different) if they thought things were better in 1975 than now. I'm sure you'd get a flat NFW.

America was better 20 years ago? Don't you live in Canada? Stick to Canadian rulings please.

Peace

No.

The gap between have and have-nots in America (and Canada) is bigger than ever before. A record number of people in the US are living in poverty. Education is at a very low level. The housing market is in shambles.

And all of this applies to Canada, too. Canadians have a record amount of debt, and our unemployment rate is rising.

Cuba is opening their doors to free enterprise, after admitting that Communism (at least their brand of it) no longer works, and hasn't for quite some time. It won't be tomorrow, but give it some time and you'll see more US jobs lost - and going to Cuba.

Maybe the reference to specific years (1995 and 1975) aren't the best, but both US and Canada have not continually moved forward for a better society in recent times.

All because we can't praise God after a TD!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!

Maybe it is the lack of prayer in school!

Oh gee Tanner, NOW look what you've started! :eek:

I'm going to blame grunewar for this as well and he probably hasn't even read the thread! Maybe I'll throw Snaqs in there as well.

John, it's not about "praising God after a TD". It's about making a spectacle out of how you might choose to do it. I suspect God is just as appreciative of a sincere, private expression of praise and thanks, without a lot of showmanship, maybe even more.

I was being sarcastic! I have been on that side of this whole tread!

BJ; I am under the impression your not an official but a coach that wants to troll...

Like the Supreme court justices said to Larry Flynt... you know it when you see it...

anytime a team scores, there is some form of celebration, We as officials are responsible to move in collect the ball for the pat and hustle the players back to their respective huddles.

Our job is to keep the game moving, and maintain its integrity. Our best games as officials are the ones that no one remembers us being there at all.

You are right that BJ is a coach and often gets into with people about obscure rules or applications of the rules. I honestly think he means well, but gets caught up in some wording or situation that does not apply to his main "*****" about how a rule is enforced or not enforced.

I have to say this. Can we stop saying that we are not to be noticed to be considered a good official or doing a good job. That stopped happening some years ago for most of us. Even if we do not call something controversial or anything goofy happens, we have coaches that know before that game starts who we are. And in the age of YouTube and commentators on TV talking about officiating every other play; we are going to be noticed all the time. I think we do ourselves a disservice by acting like if we do not call things we will not get noticed or that should be the barometer. Some of the best officials are noticed for the right reasons, not for what we call or do not call.

Peace

I've always hated hearing this. It's just not true. If no one remembers us being there at all, it probably means we were not doing our jobs. No game is ever run so cleanly that we are not visible in some aspect. I hate when officials say this, it often means their goal is to fly under the radar and not affect the game... but the result means they DID affect the game by not making calls they should have.

Seen and not heard is a cop-out for doing your job.

+1

There's a fine line between being a waste of space who can't make a call and being an officious, pompous àss. Still, that's the line we walk.

Just to set the record straight...the term "I know it when I see it..." had nothing to do with Larry Flynt. In Jacobellis v. Ohio. Ohio 378 US 184 (1964) Justice Potter Stewart wrote in a concurring opinion; "I shall not today attemp further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hardcore pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

Was not wanting to come off as attacking BJ too much.. was just the feeling I got from how he said things..

I agree, my statement of not being noticed is short sighted, in trying to make a point and be brief to cut down on read time words do not come out correctly.

Coaches and fans while they will not always agree with our calls, will usually remember us for the major screw ups. Those people have an interest in the outcome of the game. combine that with a lack of knowledge of rules, or even worse; their own interpretation of a rule, that as officials we have worked together to maintain a consistant agreement of the proper administration of when to penalize or not.

Yes there are occasional gems working as coaches that will come out and tell you great call even though it went against his team.... usually with him acting like he is raising hell and chuckling as he says If I don't do this my parents will hang me.. :D

Thanks Bob71, guess I fell in with the urban legend of that being based on the Flynt case...

Suggesting that being seen, but nor heard, or anyone remembers us being there at all is somehow, "a cop-out for doing your job", is simply wrong and misguided.

We are not participants in the game and it is not the intention for us to impact, or affect the outcome of the game. We are included simply to insure that the game is run properly and that neither team violates any rule that would give them an unfair advantage, or place their oponent at an unfair disadvantage. The game is played only by the participants

"Not being noticed" is NOT related to the number, or type, of fouls called or even the significance of the result of any fouls that may be called, when the officials are adept at handling their responsibilities, their movement and positioning is professional, precise and effective, they are clear in their decisions and decisive in their actions.

Our objective is NOT to "please" either team, rather to generate confidence in both teams that our decisions are absolutely unbiased and impartial. To "NOT be noticed" usually requires an effective performance in which all of the skills required of the job are accomplished consistently and effectively with as little fanfare as possible.

It may not be to us but it certainly is to many coaches, fans and commentators.

The flag on Washington State's Jake Locker a couple of years ago for an obvious USC is the perfect example of such.

I disagree. It's not wrong or misguided ... and CERTAINLY not bold and italic wrong or misguided! :)

However, I agree with the rest of this. I guess I should clarify what I meant. We've all seen officials out there just to get through the game, flying under the radar and only flagging the Elephant fouls, and even that begrudgingly. Same guy might be heard saying, "Mike, why'd you flag that late hold. Now we're going to be late for Monday Night Football"... and these same officials are those I've heard saying, "we're there to be seen, not heard."

I would add, however, that an official that is not noticed at all PROBABLY was shirking on his calls at times. I grant that you get a game every once in a while where all your calls are obvious and unargued. But given that in most games there are a few plays that are so close that 1 side or the other is going to hate you regardless of what you do, the "not noticed" game is rare.

Count me in!
 

I finally read this long thread and I agree! :D

Ex-President Bush would then send the troops to invade said players house. Then hold a press conference stating he found the WMD's.