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Reffing Rev. Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 692531)
Are you a coach? Cause, quite frankly, I think only coaches believe this nonsense.
No, I'm not a coach, never have been, can't stand them.

But I do firmly believe that if an official can't tell me who was holding, blocked in the back, or committed pass interference, that he may have guessed he saw a foul based on seeing half a play, the coaches or fans reactions, or his own anticipation.

You tell me why an official should be excused from getting a number?

I've never heard an official with a mic say, "Holding, someone on white, 10 yards," because officials as you move up the ladder, get numbers. I want my crew to get numbers.

Rich Thu Sep 16, 2010 01:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692650)
No, I'm not a coach, never have been, can't stand them.

But I do firmly believe that if an official can't tell me who was holding, blocked in the back, or committed pass interference, that he may have guessed he saw a foul based on seeing half a play, the coaches or fans reactions, or his own anticipation.

You tell me why an official should be excused from getting a number?

I've never heard an official with a mic say, "Holding, someone on white, 10 yards," because officials as you move up the ladder, get numbers. I want my crew to get numbers.
Excused? I don't get what you're saying. We're not *required* to report numbers at the HS level over the microphone, matter of fact it's frowned upon.

So I see a blue jersey player grab and twist a face mask and flag it but can't get the number in the sea of players and you'd what, pick up the flag? Castigate me? I'd tell you to pound sand.

My crew gets numbers 99% of the time. I can live with the 1% where they don't.

MD Longhorn Thu Sep 16, 2010 01:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692650)
No, I'm not a coach, never have been, can't stand them.

But I do firmly believe that if an official can't tell me who was holding, blocked in the back, or committed pass interference, that he may have guessed he saw a foul based on seeing half a play, the coaches or fans reactions, or his own anticipation.

You tell me why an official should be excused from getting a number?

I've never heard an official with a mic say, "Holding, someone on white, 10 yards," because officials as you move up the ladder, get numbers. I want my crew to get numbers.
I think you're a little firmer than you need to be here. HL and LJ are not always going to get the number of a lineman that grabs the defender and throws him straight down - unless the player turns or has numbers on his arms. Facemasks often happen in piles. Even lined up in the neutral zone or moved into the neutral zone - I know I've told coaches more than once - "Coach it was your nozeguard" "You didn't get a number?!?!" "No - it was the noseguard in the NZ early - but as soon as the play started I lost him in the crowd.

Comparing us to NCAA or pros is not valid - especially NFL. They have FAR fewer teams and numbers to deal with, and often not only know the number of the players but the names as well - BEFORE the game starts. If I get the same team twice in a season, it's a rarity.

wwcfoa43 Thu Sep 16, 2010 02:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 692559)
You know, Jug, whenever I see you post the "Canadian Ruling" I can't help wondering what you guys are doing with that missing down from every series. Do you think they're like coupons or something, if you save enough of them we'll let you use them to buy something from us? :p
The teams get the coupons but unfortunately have to use them up in order to send out the 12th player.

Eastshire Thu Sep 16, 2010 02:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692650)
No, I'm not a coach, never have been, can't stand them.

But I do firmly believe that if an official can't tell me who was holding, blocked in the back, or committed pass interference, that he may have guessed he saw a foul based on seeing half a play, the coaches or fans reactions, or his own anticipation.

You tell me why an official should be excused from getting a number?

I've never heard an official with a mic say, "Holding, someone on white, 10 yards," because officials as you move up the ladder, get numbers. I want my crew to get numbers.
Actually, I hear this a lot although the actual words are usually "left guard" or similar or even a number not on the field.

wwcfoa43 Thu Sep 16, 2010 02:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692650)
No, I'm not a coach, never have been, can't stand them.

But I do firmly believe that if an official can't tell me who was holding, blocked in the back, or committed pass interference, that he may have guessed he saw a foul based on seeing half a play, the coaches or fans reactions, or his own anticipation.

You tell me why an official should be excused from getting a number?

I've never heard an official with a mic say, "Holding, someone on white, 10 yards," because officials as you move up the ladder, get numbers. I want my crew to get numbers.
It is a matter of priorities. I recall one of my early college games where it was so muddy that the players were covered in mud by the end of the game. I had a legitimate holding call but spent so much focus trying to ascertain what number the player was that I did not get where the ball went dead. On the play I had three things to do (amongst others): call the foul, get the number and mark forward progress. However, two of the three (foul and forward progress) were more important than the number and so should have received the higher priority.

Are we responsible for getting a number? Yes. But you cannot conclude that a lack of number means the official does not have a foul.

JRutledge Fri Sep 17, 2010 02:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692650)
I've never heard an official with a mic say, "Holding, someone on white, 10 yards," because officials as you move up the ladder, get numbers. I want my crew to get numbers.
No, but at the high school level we do not give numbers. We only say the team or classification (offense, defense, kicking team, receiving team). And in most cases we do not get a mic. We get asked silly questions all the time even if you give them a number. So what difference does it make if we give a number? I give positions all the time.

If you are trying to suggest the pros do those things, they have 7 officials and get to stay on a key for several seconds on a play. In a 5 man or fewer crew that is not always as easy.

Peace

JugglingReferee Fri Sep 17, 2010 03:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 692559)
You know, Jug, whenever I see you post the "Canadian Ruling" I can't help wondering what you guys are doing with that missing down from every series. Do you think they're like coupons or something, if you save enough of them we'll let you use them to buy something from us? :p
I was once on a crew where we allowed a team to cash in a coupon. It was ~ 2001 and some youth leagues do play 4 down football. So we went with the 5th down. We disguised is as a repeated 3rd down after an incomplete pass. The silly downsbox guy forget to bring his "5" with him - you know, to snap in place in downsbox, so we had to do something.

Luckily, that's the only time this has ever happened to me. :o

JugglingReferee Fri Sep 17, 2010 03:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 692567)
Our linesman always lets me know whether "five will get you one" or not when the box is close to the tape on the chain. It's routine for us and should be for all crews. Our linesman measures the chains for every game at every level and always puts fresh tape on the chain.

The only time I've ever wondered if there was a good way to use the chains to measure was when we had a PF on a play that ended just about 15 yards short of a first down. In the end I eyed it up and it appeared to get the first down by about half-a-yard and that's the way we rolled with it (although in the back of my head I wondered if everyone simply thought we enforced it as an AFD).

I don't have a strict reporting requirement for my crew -- I have preferences, though -- I really prefer they say "offense" or "defense" or "kicking team" or "receivers." I'm not fond of shirt colors. Personally, I don't care if I get a shirt number, although it's part of the sequence so we can get the number to the sideline. If the official doesn't have a number, but has a position, that's OK. Saying left tackle to me is better than giving the wrong number. Like Jeff said, if a hand comes up and twists a face mask and we don't get a number, it doesn't really bother me -- it's not like not getting the number doesn't mean the foul didn't exist.

I also prefer holding and DPI to be described (arm bar, hook and turn, tackle, bear hug) so we can take that information to the sideline.
It is for too for my local crew, but not every official is efficient at reporting this. Because the situation happens so rarely (the box being close to the tape and a B foul happens), some officials forget this mechanic.

All you would need to do is spin the front stick around to become the back stick, and execute the "Reverse Measurement". I'm sure I don't need to lay out these mechanics. :D

For those newbies: pivoting around the back stick, move the LTG stick to be 10 yards behind the back stick. Then bring in the sticks and if the mid-tape is behind the new "back stick", no 1D on the PF. Otherwise, it is a 1D on the PF.

JugglingReferee Fri Sep 17, 2010 04:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 692568)
In our games we have enough punts as it is. I could only imagine how many we'd have if we only had 3 downs.
I'd love to see numbers comparing the two. Our field of play:player ratio is 22% larger than yours, so we should have more open room to complete passes.

But like any sport, catching is fundamental. :eek:

JugglingReferee Fri Sep 17, 2010 04:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692509)
Who: Team and Number (If you can't get me a number then you didn't see enough of the play to throw a flag)
What: Foul (including distance penalty)
When: Before the pass, after the play, etc.
Where: Where did the foul happen and where is our enforcement spot.

Finally what is the clock status?
Does this also apply to facemask?

ajmc Fri Sep 17, 2010 09:42am
One size NEVER fits all, and if you're looking for absolutes and "silver bullets", football is a bad place to be looking. Perhaps the closest thing to really consistant is the lurking presence of the unexpected.

Rich Fri Sep 17, 2010 09:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 692749)
It is for too for my local crew, but not every official is efficient at reporting this. Because the situation happens so rarely (the box being close to the tape and a B foul happens), some officials forget this mechanic.

All you would need to do is spin the front stick around to become the back stick, and execute the "Reverse Measurement". I'm sure I don't need to lay out these mechanics. :D

For those newbies: pivoting around the back stick, move the LTG stick to be 10 yards behind the back stick. Then bring in the sticks and if the mid-tape is behind the new "back stick", no 1D on the PF. Otherwise, it is a 1D on the PF.
I almost did this, but our chain crews would probably lose 2 of the 3 (or 4) members due to their brains exploding. Fortunately, I was able to ascertain that it was a first down without any histrionics.

JRod37 Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 692650)

You tell me why an official should be excused from getting a number?
When I don't get a number it's because 1) there was probably a pile where I couldn't see the numbers but I definitely saw the jersey colors, or 2) there was something else going on that needed attention such as a guy laying someone out behind the play. I don't stop watching the play just because I need 2-3 more seconds to find the number of the player. If I'm looking for a number in those instances above, I'm not watching the rest of the play.

As mentioned earlier 99% of the time it's not a problem to get the number. And I do believe it is good officiating strive to get the number every time. But it's not critical to the game.


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