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-   -   Spot enforcement (https://forum.officiating.com/football/59035-spot-enforcement.html)

JugglingReferee Wed Sep 08, 2010 09:00am
Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdow (Post 691400)
I have one: The line of scrimmage is the 30 of B. Quarterback for A is in the pocket on the 37 when he is grabbed by the earhole of the helmet and his head is twisted. He is subsequently tackled on the 35.

Is there a penalty, if so, for what? Where is the enforcement spot?

We flagged for "face-masking" and marked of 15 from the spot of the foul (ie 37) to make it 1st and 10 on the 22.

This is a high school game.
CANADIAN RULING:

Facemask is a UR foul. UR before YG can be applied from PLS or PBD at non-offending team's option, and by itself, is now unrestricted. Result: Team A 1D/10 @ B-15.

mbyron Wed Sep 08, 2010 09:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 691496)
It's considered a loose ball play if the fumble is behind the line of scrimmage -- the basic spot is the previous spot (this is why we don't bag fumbles behind the line of scrimmage).
Here in Ohio, our mechanics czar has directed us to bag all fumbles, including those behind the NZ. The rationale is to instill the habit of bagging fumbles.

BroKen62 Wed Sep 08, 2010 09:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 691495)
Go ahead, start. This is bad thinking. Everyone on the field is responsible for knowing penalty enforcement.
I admit, I was being a bit facetious in my previous post - I do try to know, understand, and enforce all the rules. I work JV games as WH, and have never seemed to have a problem when it comes to enforcing the flags thrown, but when I sit down and think about this rule, I still get confused. Maybe it's one of those things you just do as a matter of habit and instinct. Although I do wonder if I've done it wrong in the past, and nobody, including me, caught it.!?

Rich Wed Sep 08, 2010 09:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 691501)
Here in Ohio, our mechanics czar has directed us to bag all fumbles, including those behind the NZ. The rationale is to instill the habit of bagging fumbles.
Instead of thinking officials....

Welpe Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 691479)

So if you have a pass followed by a fumble followed by a backward pass, it's all one big loose ball play until the last loose ball is caught or recovered. The basic spot for a foul during any of that action would be the previous spot.
One quibble. The forward pass and action before it would be a loose ball play. Once the pass is completed, a running play begins. If there is a subsequent fumble beyond the neutral zone, then that fumble is part of the related run. If that fumble is recovered, we have the start of another running play.

If you have a foul during a loose ball after a fumble beyond the NZ, then the basic spot is the end of the related run.

waltjp Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroKen62 (Post 691506)
I admit, I was being a bit facetious in my previous post - I do try to know, understand, and enforce all the rules. I work JV games as WH, and have never seemed to have a problem when it comes to enforcing the flags thrown, but when I sit down and think about this rule, I still get confused. Maybe it's one of those things you just do as a matter of habit and instinct. Although I do wonder if I've done it wrong in the past, and nobody, including me, caught it.!?
Study. Observe. Ask questions. This is how we learn. Any good official will tell you they're always studying and always learning. We all endeavor to work the perfect game. Alas, none of us are perfect.

ppaltice Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:34pm
The rationale for bean bagging fumbles that occur behind the line of scrimmage is in the definition of a loose ball play.

A loose ball play is a ...fumble...made from in or behind the neutral zone...

The bean bag indicates where the fumble was made. The rules specify the type of play and subsequent enforcement spot.

I think most would agree that you want to bean bag a fumble made near the line of scrimmage. At that point you are injecting subjectivity into your mechanic. Why not incorporate a consistant mechanic where all fumbles and incomplete backward passes are bean bagged?

Rich Fri Sep 10, 2010 01:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ppaltice (Post 691751)
The rationale for bean bagging fumbles that occur behind the line of scrimmage is in the definition of a loose ball play.

A loose ball play is a ...fumble...made from in or behind the neutral zone...

The bean bag indicates where the fumble was made. The rules specify the type of play and subsequent enforcement spot.

I think most would agree that you want to bean bag a fumble made near the line of scrimmage. At that point you are injecting subjectivity into your mechanic. Why not incorporate a consistant mechanic where all fumbles and incomplete backward passes are bean bagged?
It is a consistent mechanic. I consistently do not bag fumbles and grounded backwards passes that are clearly behind the line of scrimmage.

mbyron Sat Sep 11, 2010 07:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 691767)
It is a consistent mechanic. I consistently do not bag fumbles and grounded backwards passes that are clearly behind the line of scrimmage.
As I reread our Ohio manual, I noticed this additional rationale for bagging fumbles behind the NZ: it signals everyone that the ball is still live to help prevent inadvertent whistles (also good for grounded backward passes).

gene2112 Sat Sep 11, 2010 09:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 691496)
It's considered a loose ball play if the fumble is behind the line of scrimmage -- the basic spot is the previous spot (this is why we don't bag fumbles behind the line of scrimmage).

It's considered a running play if the fumble is beyond the line of scrimmage -- the basic spot is then the end of the associated run.

I know this is confusing if you're not used to enforcing these. There's a great breakdown of this in the Redding Guide, BTW. Best money you'll ever spend -- I bought 5 of them this year, one for each member of my crew.
Very well stated and correct on all counts, including the invaluable info in the Redding Guide.


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