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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 12:50pm
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Nfhs 7-3-1

Any player may hand the ball backward at ANYtime.


Anybody have a problem with this statement?
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Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Any player may hand the ball backward at ANYtime.

Anybody have a problem with this statement?
No. Do you?
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Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 01:18pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
No. Do you?
Just thinking about the placekick holder who must 1st rise before he can hand the ball in any direction.

Anticipating what you might say here. If the placekick holder tries to hand the ball without rising, then all he's doing in handing a dead ball. But still, makes you think.
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Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Just thinking about the placekick holder who must 1st rise before he can hand the ball in any direction.

Anticipating what you might say here. If the placekick holder tries to hand the ball without rising, then all he's doing in handing a dead ball. But still, makes you think.
OK, and I admit I don't work Fed ball... but wouldn't the rule you posted mean that holder does not have to rise first? Is the rule you posted a change?
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Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 02:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
OK, and I admit I don't work Fed ball... but wouldn't the rule you posted mean that holder does not have to rise first? Is the rule you posted a change?
Look what you started DMR
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Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 02:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
OK, and I admit I don't work Fed ball... but wouldn't the rule you posted mean that holder does not have to rise first? Is the rule you posted a change?
Nope, its always been there. I just think its poorly written. It gives you the impression that ANY player can hand a ball backwards at ANY time. And its just not true. The player with his knee on the ground for a placekick, must rise before can do so.

It would be great if they would just add a note to it. I know the rule and I know I would never mess it up in a game. But we have to take an exam in a couple weeks. And the guy that writes our exam loves to put true/false one liners on the exam. And this (in my opinion) is not a true statement. But its right out of the book and I know that.
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Old Mon Jul 12, 2010, 09:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Nope, its always been there. I just think its poorly written. It gives you the impression that ANY player can hand a ball backwards at ANY time. And its just not true. The player with his knee on the ground for a placekick, must rise before can do so.

It would be great if they would just add a note to it.
Better if they'd just delete it. Why does anything like it need to be stated? When the ball is in play, if there's no rule against playing it that way....
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Old Tue Jul 13, 2010, 12:59pm
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Can you post the rule that says the holder must rise?
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Old Tue Jul 13, 2010, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Can you post the rule that says the holder must rise?
It's 4-2-2a Exception 1:
"1. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the
ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while
his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance,
hand, kick or pass;"

For example:
4.2.2 SITUATION A: K1 has one knee on the ground to hold for an apparent
field-goal attempt. K2 is in position to kick. K1 catches the snap and: (a) places
the ball which is kicked by K2; or (b) rises and either runs or passes; or (c) without
rising, flips the ball to K2 who attempts to run. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).
In (c), the ball becomes dead immediately when K1 tosses it to K2 while K1 has
his knee on the ground
. (4-2-2a Exception)
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Old Tue Jul 13, 2010, 03:15pm
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So the ball becomes immediately dead if the holder with knee on ground hands the ball backward. So what? It does not invalidate the rule statement. He CAN hand it back with no risk of penalty. It's just that the ball becomes dead immediately. It would be the same thing if a runner handed it back to a teammate who happens to be stradling the sideline. Or would you have a problem with that too? Or do you somehow need the rule to state for you here what is clear in other rules within the book?
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Old Tue Jul 13, 2010, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
So the ball becomes immediately dead if the holder with knee on ground hands the ball backward. So what? It does not invalidate the rule statement. He CAN hand it back with no risk of penalty. It's just that the ball becomes dead immediately. It would be the same thing if a runner handed it back to a teammate who happens to be stradling the sideline. Or would you have a problem with that too? Or do you somehow need the rule to state for you here what is clear in other rules within the book?
Dude... seems like you have some issues yourself. ha ha..
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Old Tue Jul 13, 2010, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
So the ball becomes immediately dead if the holder with knee on ground hands the ball backward. So what? It does not invalidate the rule statement. He CAN hand it back with no risk of penalty.
+1

I think this is the key point: forward handing is a foul, backward handing is not. It doesn't follow that all backward handing will be followed by a run.
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Old Tue Jul 13, 2010, 04:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Dude... seems like you have some issues yourself. ha ha..
My issue is I don't enjoy pointless mental masturbation. If you want to take rule statements out of the context of other rules within the book that clearly have an effect on one another, knock yourself out and good luck.
And I got over calling people "dude" not long after high school.
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Last edited by Mike L; Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 04:55pm.
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Old Thu Jul 15, 2010, 09:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
My issue is I don't enjoy pointless mental masturbation. If you want to take rule statements out of the context of other rules within the book that clearly have an effect on one another, knock yourself out and good luck.
And I got over calling people "dude" not long after high school.
Whatever you say,,, ummm, DUDE.
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Old Thu Jul 15, 2010, 09:51am
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I am just a casual observer to this page. I try to come here during football seaon to learn the new rules and have discussion about rules during the season. There are many good answers that a person like me learns each year.
But I must agree with Mike. Taking one sentence out of the rule book and trying to make that rule apply, on its own, with no reguard for the other rules is simple confusing.
I do respect peoples knowledge of the rules but more incentive could be used to help people with rules and plays instead of sabotage people's understanding of rules.
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