You Make the Call...

[hsfootballfan]

Heres a situation from a Northern California Section title game.

We're inside 30 seconds left in the game, score is 23 -20, team with ball is trying to tie the game.

4th and 12, offense opts for a field goal attempt from the 17.

Field goal attempt is blocked but picked up by the holder who rolls to his left, towards the opponent sideline, and attempts a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage. Pass falls incomplete...

However, there are flags on the play.

And a lot of other stuff going on as well...

There were players from the opposing teams (defense) bench running on to the field in celebration of the blocked kick, and were within a few yards of the holder with the ball during the play.

The flags were for illegal participation on the defense (during the play) and one on the offense for illegal man downfield.

Initially the team that blocked the kick was given the ball 1st and 10, a simple knee wins the game.

The coach of the team who kicked the field goal goes on to the field and requests that the referees review their ruling and asks them to assess the penalties correctly.

After 20 minutes (or so) of discussion the referees decide that the illegal participation was during a live ball.

During the discussion...an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty was given to the kicking team as well.

What is the correct call (s), what team should have the ball, and where should it be placed.


After your replies, I'll post what the refs decided and link to a video of the play, and the amazing finish.

Have fun...

Thanks!

[Berkut]

Offsetting live ball penalties, replay the down.

If the USC penalty was given for actions after the play, dead ball, then presumably we are going to march off 15, which I would guess takes them out of field goal range?

Just talking off the top of my head though.

[ump33]

Originally Posted by hsfootballfan

Heres a situation from a Northern California Section title game.

We're inside 30 seconds left in the game, score is 23 -20, team with ball is trying to tie the game.

4th and 12, offense opts for a field goal attempt from the 17.

Field goal attempt is blocked but picked up by the holder who rolls to his left, towards the opponent sideline, and attempts a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage. Pass falls incomplete...

There were players from the opposing teams (defense) bench running on to the field in celebration of the blocked kick, and were within a few yards of the holder with the ball during the play.

The flags were for illegal participation on the defense (during the play) and one on the offense for illegal man downfield.

Illegal Participation on R (B) and Ineligible Downfield on K (A) ... Offsetting Fouls replay 4th down after the enforcement of the Unsporting Foul on K (A) ... 4th & 27 from the 32

[hsfootballfan]

2 for 2 so far....glad to see the the umps got it right

You guys are good.

heres a link to the video..... (it's safe)


YouTube - Illegal Participation.avi

[bbcof83]

I don't see the ineligible downfield. Can someone point that foul out to me? #88 is the end on the line on the far side and #8 is the end on the line on the near side. They are the only two who cross the LOS and both are eligible receivers.

[BroKen62]

9.8.1.i. ART. 1 . . . No coach, substitute, trainer or other team attendant shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the officials assume authority for the contest. Examples are, but not limited to: i. Being on the field except as a substitute or replaced player. (See 3-7-6; 9-
6-4a)

After reading and researching, IMHO the proper call against the defense should be nonplayer unsportsmanlike conduct. Since this foul is treated as a dead-ball foul, it is marked off from the succeeding spot.
Soooooooooo, here's my stab, and you guys can tear it up. Since the field goal was blocked, B declines A's penalty, takes the ball, and then we mark off the unsportsmanlike fouls in the order they occurred?!?

[jaybird]

I didn't notice any of the non-players participating and influencing the play.
No illegal participation.

I did notice non-players out of the team box and on the field during a live ball, therefore I have unsportsmanlike conduct on team B. Incomplete pass on 4th down. Previous spot was the B 17. Succeeding spot enforcement.
B, 1/10 @ B 8.5. Snap.

[Texas Aggie]

There were players from the opposing teams (defense) bench running on to the field in celebration of the blocked kick, and were within a few yards of the holder with the ball during the play.

Just for an NCAA interp, the question is, did they participate? If so, its a live ball foul (15 yards). If not, its a live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul (5 yards, possibly 15 depending on how many occurred prior). If the former, offset with the offense penalty and replay. If the later, decline the offense's foul and mark off the 5 or 15.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I don't see the ineligible downfield. Can someone point that foul out to me? #88 is the end on the line on the far side and #8 is the end on the line on the near side. They are the only two who cross the LOS and both are eligible receivers.

I was looking for that also and (at least within the video) did not see anything. There was #75 who looked to be behind the line when the ball was release and then while the lob pass was in the air, took off downfield attempting to catch it, but didn't touch it.

Perhaps there was someone else on the opposite side of the field.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

I was looking for that also and (at least within the video) did not see anything. There was #75 who looked to be behind the line when the ball was release and then while the lob pass was in the air, took off downfield attempting to catch it, but didn't touch it.

Perhaps there was someone else on the opposite side of the field.

That's what I thought too, but if you will count, there are 11 in view.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Just for an NCAA interp, the question is, did they participate? If so, its a live ball foul (15 yards). If not, its a live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul (5 yards, possibly 15 depending on how many occurred prior). If the former, offset with the offense penalty and replay. If the later, decline the offense's foul and mark off the 5 or 15.

According to HS rules, the nonplayer unsportsmanlike is not treated progressively like the sideline warning rule. If a nonplayer is on the field, during the down, it's 15 treated as a dead ball, marked off from succeeding spot. I never saw anyone who ran onto the field participate. In fact, once they realized what was going on, they went back toward the sideline.

The illegal participation appears to be the same in NCAA and NFHS, because if they had participated, in HS it would be a live ball foul as well, offset and replay.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hsfootballfan

Heres a situation from a Northern California Section title game.

We're inside 30 seconds left in the game, score is 23 -20, team with ball is trying to tie the game.

4th and 12, offense opts for a field goal attempt from the 17.

Field goal attempt is blocked but picked up by the holder who rolls to his left, towards the opponent sideline, and attempts a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage. Pass falls incomplete...

However, there are flags on the play.

And a lot of other stuff going on as well...

There were players from the opposing teams (defense) bench running on to the field in celebration of the blocked kick, and were within a few yards of the holder with the ball during the play.

The flags were for illegal participation on the defense (during the play) and one on the offense for illegal man downfield.

Initially the team that blocked the kick was given the ball 1st and 10, a simple knee wins the game.

The coach of the team who kicked the field goal goes on to the field and requests that the referees review their ruling and asks them to assess the penalties correctly.

After 20 minutes (or so) of discussion the referees decide that the illegal participation was during a live ball.

During the discussion...an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty was given to the kicking team as well.

What is the correct call (s), what team should have the ball, and where should it be placed.


After your replies, I'll post what the refs decided and link to a video of the play, and the amazing finish.

Have fun...

Thanks!

CANADIAN RULING:

Balance the Team B Illegal Substitution with the Team A Illegal Man Downfield at the LS. 10 yards each means repeat the down. But they also decided to issue OC against Team A. So: Repeat the down, Team A on the B-27. Clock on the snap.

[Jim D.]

Part of the problem may have been poor sideline control. In the video, you don't see much of team R's sideline, but K's sideline looks like it is filled with spectators lined up right on the sideline from the goal line up to the 30. Who are all these people? Maybe they aren't as close as they appear to be, but it doesn't seem that the crew was too concerned with the sidelines. That doesn't excuse R, but if the teams had been back where they belonged, maybe #50 doesn't get out there as quickly as he did.

I would call Green for IP, #50 looked to be close enough that he may have influenced the play. I didn't see the downfield, but this wasn't a tricky ruling. If this is a sectional, one would assume the crew would have a clue.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by jaybird

I didn't notice any of the non-players participating and influencing the play.
No illegal participation.

I did notice non-players out of the team box and on the field during a live ball, therefore I have unsportsmanlike conduct on team B. Incomplete pass on 4th down. Previous spot was the B 17. Succeeding spot enforcement.
B, 1/10 @ B 8.5. Snap.

I disagree. If illegal participation was NOT ruled, then the applicable rule would be 3-7-6 - illegal substitution (5 yd non-player foul). This cannot be combined with the ineligible downfield since it is a non-player foul. The ineligible downfield will obviously be declined. B will get the ball and have the 5 yards enforced after possession has changed. The USC on A will also be enforced.

Had illegal participation been called (which you can justify in that clip), then it's correct to offset them, penalize A/K 15 yds and replay 4th down with the USC tacked on afterwards.


Plays like that, hopefully the R was mic'd up.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by jaybird

I didn't notice any of the non-players participating and influencing the play.
No illegal participation.

I did notice non-players out of the team box and on the field during a live ball, therefore I have unsportsmanlike conduct on team B. Incomplete pass on 4th down. Previous spot was the B 17. Succeeding spot enforcement.
B, 1/10 @ B 8.5. Snap.

I agree with you except for the penalty enforcement - B declines A's inelible downfield and takes the ball at the previous spot, the17. Next, because we have 2 USC's, I would enforce B's foul first because it occurred first - half the distance to the 8.5, then enforce A's dead ball USC 15 yards to the 23.5. B's Ball 1st and 10 at the 23.5.