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-   -   State Championship Call (https://forum.officiating.com/football/55597-state-championship-call.html)

bigjohn Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:19pm
http://lh5.ggpht.com/__gPjX7skmTs/Sx...s640/catch.jpg




http://lh3.ggpht.com/__gPjX7skmTs/Sx...s512/catch.jpg

Looks to me like he was coming down in bounds. Where were you sitting and who were you rooting for?

:)

Mike L Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 639156)
Mike L, I'm truly sorry my attempt to raise a separate point regarding the matter of "force out", failed to meet your presentation requirements, and if my choice of words didn't meet your expectations, I'll try to do better. I was merely trying to suggest the matter, of whether or not there was a catch, seems more related to the definition of NF: 2-4-1, than advice, albeit valid and helpful, related to an illegal forward pass NF: 7-5.

Apparently my limited experience doesn't provide me with the eagle eye details you so easily observe, regarding body language, exact and specific positioning on the field (within a step or two), how many degrees his head was turned at any specific moment or the exact state of his vision, as determined by, "his body positioning and moving during the critical part of the play".

I was trying to suggest that his ruling was "right" simply because he made it based on what he observed on that field at that moment. A judgment that will apparently stand. Whether that judgment was correct and can withstand your microscopic dissection is an entirely different matter, that accurate or not, will have absolutely no bearing on anything relevant.

Reviewing the play from an instructional perspective has merit as it demonstrates avoidable difficulty added by positioning both prior to and during the actual decision process, but picking at it, to the level of a gnat's eyelash, to simply prove someone was wrong, seems more like a wasted pursuit of ego than an instructional effort.
Pathetic is the only word that comes to mind in response to this.

Mike L Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 639159)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/__gPjX7skmTs/Sx...s512/catch.jpg

Looks to me like he was coming down in bounds. Where were you sitting and who were you rooting for?

:)
still pictures rarely count for much when the movement of the players is critical to the play.

Welpe Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 639162)
still pictures rarely count for much when the movement of the players is critical to the play.
What Mike said...plus, it DOES NOT MATTER if he would have come down inbounds or not! His momentum was carrying him towards the sideline and that is the same direction that the defender pushed him. The defender didn't change his direction while airborne.

P.S. The bold and red type face is not intended to yell, only emphasize that very important point.

bigjohn Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:29pm
I say his momentum was toward the back of the endzone and the db changed his direction. So 7.5.2k does not fit. Look again, he starts his jump and is going backwards, db hits him FROM THE SIDE and knocks him OOB. When his arms ar up waiting for the ball he is going backwards, pass almost falls short. He catches it in his belly.


COMMENT: When any
receiver is close to the sideline and is contacted by an opponent, the covering
official must make a decision about where he would have landed without the contact.
(4-3-2)


4.3.3 SITUATION B: A has third down and seven yards to gain at B’s 30. A1
leaps near the sideline to catch a pass near B’s 30-yard line. A1 is driven out of
bounds backwards by B2 while making the catch and lands outside the sideline
at B’s 32. RULING: The covering official must make the following decisions: Did
B2’s actions cause A1 to land out of bounds? If the official determines that B2
caused A1 to land out of bounds, then the official must determine forward
progress in the field of play and should not stop the clock. If however, the clock
is stopped, it should start on the ready because forward progress was stopped in
the field of play. If A1 would have landed out of bounds of his own accord, it is
an incomplete pass and the clock should be stopped. COMMENT: When any
receiver is close to the sideline and is contacted by an opponent, the covering
official must make a decision about where he would have landed without the contact.

grizwald Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:34pm
Agree with some on here that it doesn't matter based on the momentum of the receiver being the same direction as the push from the defender. They look like they are both leaping in the same direction to me. It doesn't appear that the defender pushs a different direction from his own momentum.

But I saw it live, replays on the jumbotron, and on here - I'm with Big John as far as what happens without the contact. I think without the contact he comes down in bounds.

The defender didn't push him really hard, but it totally knocked him off balance and his legs move suddenly to try and find the ground. Good NFL and college receivers learn to ignore the unnatural feeling of losing your balance and dot those feet/foot in bounds anyway and just pay the price by eating the turf sometimes - but this receiver doesn't have that kind of experience to do that.

bigjohn Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:51pm
Are you Serious, Clark?:eek:

grizwald Wed Dec 02, 2009 01:54pm
lol Big John, you get the reference I see. :) Have a great day

Welpe Wed Dec 02, 2009 02:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 639164)
I say his momentum was toward the back of the endzone and the db changed his direction.
If you say so but I reserve the right to question your vision. :)

jaybird Wed Dec 02, 2009 02:49pm
Quote:
Apparently my limited experience doesn't provide me with the eagle eye details you so easily observe, regarding body language, exact and specific positioning on the field (within a step or two), how many degrees his head was turned at any specific moment or the exact state of his vision, as determined by, "his body positioning and moving during the critical part of the play".
That's really a shame because if you possessed those attributes, you could become a football game official. Perhaps with experience you might be able to acquire these qualities you so desperately seek.

bigjohn Wed Dec 02, 2009 02:51pm
you seriously think if he doesn't get hit from the side that he does get a foot down in bounds?

Talk about vision problems! It is plain to see the ball is caught in bounds and he is coming down in bounds when he is contacted by the defender. PLAIN AS DAY!

Welpe Wed Dec 02, 2009 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 639195)
you seriously think if he doesn't get hit from the side that he does get a foot down in bounds?
Oh I have no doubt that if he doesn't get hit, he comes down in bounds. But that is completely irrelevant as the airborne receiver's momentum is towards the sideline and that is the direction he was pushed.

bisonlj Wed Dec 02, 2009 03:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 639200)
Oh I have no doubt that if he doesn't get hit, he comes down in bounds. But that is completely irrelevant as the airborne receiver's momentum is towards the sideline and that is the direction he was pushed.
And just to show how much of a judgment call this is, I have no doubt he would have come down out of bounds anyway without contact. The contact was not that significant. I also agree it's irrelevant for the reason you mention but I did not remember that part of the rule when I was at the game. If I had been that official making the call I would have only applied the judgment of whether he would have landed in or out. At the time I thought out and disagreed with his call but understood it as a judgment call he had to make.

ajmc Wed Dec 02, 2009 05:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaybird (Post 639194)
That's really a shame because if you possessed those attributes, you could become a football game official. Perhaps with experience you might be able to acquire these qualities you so desperately seek.
That might very well pose a conundrum, because for most of us, the more experience you gain, the better you appreciate and understand that you aren't as smart and all knowing as you think you might be, while you're in the early stages of gaining the experience necessary to really know what you're talking about.

Ed Hickland Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sloth (Post 639103)
As a fellow Hoosier official, I want the focus to be on the body that put this crew in the position to work this contest....which according to the IHSAA's measure is the best crew in the state of Indiana. This is determined by the AD's vote (it's up to the AD to seek the advice of the head coach...which I know for a fact doesn't always happen). The AD's get an electronic ballot with the names of every crew in the state. They can choose to vote for whom ever they wish (rating 1-5). The vote total is tabulate and the crews ranked, based on the average score. My crew has recieved a number of votes over the past few season from places I've never even been to int he state, let alone worked a contest there. The IHSAA keeps this method becasue of it's relative ease of operation. They have no incentive, nor any desire, to imrpove the system.
Unfortunately, so many places including here on Long Island utilize the popularity system of rating similar to Indiana largely for two reasons; 1) it is simple, and 2) the educators who own the system lack forethought and drive to change.

How many students would be happy if their teachers gave them grades not upon their effort and performance but upon what they thought of the student. Well, why should officials accept ratings based upon popularity rather than effort and performance?

When these systems are improved to give honest, true and objective feedback to officials from unbiased third parties what we see in Indiana and other places will continue.


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