When Is a Runner Down?
 

Question about Philadelphia's last challenge flag Sunday night:

Is a ball carrier down if his elbow/knee/whatever touches a defender lying on the ground, or can he keep going forward until his body hits grass?

Reid's challenge was based on where McNabb's elbow touched the turf. But the last few feet of McNabb's movement came while lying on top of a defender.

I can't find anything in the NCAA or NFL rule books to address the question.

NCAA rule 4.1.3.b - A live ball becomes dead when any part of the ball carrier's body, except hand or foot, touches the ground.

So, unless you choose to consider another player as "the ground", touching a player laying on the ground with any body part does not make the ball carrier down.

I don't know much about NFL rules, but I'd bet somewhere in there is the about the same wording.

Other players are not the ground. The ground is the ground.

I have a related question:

If the runner touches ground with the ball (by palming it) to steady himself but stays on his feet, would this be considered "down"?

no

Thanks.

Agreed on all counts above in three down ball as well, but if a player is lying on top of another player but about to get creamed by some defensive players, I find that's usually a good reason to kill the play assuming he's not going to gain any more yardage...

I recall in the game in question that the replay didn't show where McNabb's left elbow was. Was it or the ground or what is not? The Referee announced that the ruling on the field "stands" and did not use "confirmed" Just not enough evidence to overturn it.

NFL 2009

Rule 7, Section 4 Dead Ball

Article 1

An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended:

(e) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

Note: The ball is dead at the spot of the ball at the instant the runner so touches the ground, irrespective of the condition of the field. A runner touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to advance.

I believe they did show a reply showing McNabb's elbow on the turf, but there wasn' clear evidence to show whether the ball should of been moved forward or not

Sounds like his forward progress is stopped, which means he's down. IMO, it's a bad policy to call a runner down because he might get hit. Call him down when he's down.

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

Maybe that is how they do it in Canada, but where I live that is not what we do. There are many plays where the whistle is not blown at all. And we certainly are not blowing the whistle if a player is still fighting or not really grasped.

The play in question looked like it might have been an issue or forward progress being stopped first. Then when the pile was moving McNabb fell forward. At least this is what the official that was ruling on the play was thinking. Because I recall that McNabb did go backwards.

Peace

No, not down. Additionally, if he were to fumble the ball when that happened, it's a fumble. So, in essence, the ground caused the fumble and he is not down.

Agreed, if the ball carrier is still fighting and there is the possibility he could gain additional yardage then no, I wouldn't kill the play either. But in situations where it's hopeless and the ball carrier is in danger then I'm going to kill it. I don't work pro level and did not see the McNabb play, but I acknowledge things can be different in the show than at amateur.

I'm curious about you having "many plays where the whistle is not blown at all".....what circumstances occur to present that situation? How does the play end? I know there's many differences between three and four down ball, but this is one I've never heard of before.

And peace back to you as well..especially on this, November 11th.

Lest We Forget.

This does not matter to me what level this play takes place. If I do not see leather or it is hard to determine if the ball is dead, I am not killing the play. Your whistle is not going to automatically stop players from trying to hit each other or fighting for yardage. The play is already dead by rule and for some reason players seems to know when to stop all other times without a whistle.

The play ends by everyone clearly seeing a tackle and everyone stops. But if the ball is in a huge pile and we cannot see the ball, we are not blowing the play dead with a whistle. We have some very experienced officials on my current crew and it is not uncommon to not have a whistle on multiple plays during a game. And what difference does it make anyway? If a player runs out of bounds by several yards and is hit, do you not throw the flag because the whistle was blown? This is a football fundamental. This is coach speak about the whistle. As officials we should not be using this as our standard to call fouls or to kill the play IMHO.

I have several friends that are veterans and my father is buried in a Veteran's Cemetery in Memphis, Tenn. I also have a childhood friend that is going to Iraq at the beginning of December and happened to work at Fort Hood, TX. I pray for all of those that serve and served. And my former Referee was in the Navy and served in Somalia. I even dated a girl this year that was in the Air Force and served in Iraq (no longer dating her, but she is one of the most amazing people I have met). This day means a lot to me and those close to me. ;)

Peace

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the whistle thing, but we're on the same page as far as the men and women in uniform.

My father was an artillery sergeant from '46-'64 so I proudly call myself an "Army brat"....saw a lot of the world at an early age...

As well, two of the guys from our Association have each done multiple tours in Afghanistan.....extraordinary stuff from where I sit....always a sombre day...

Yes we will and I am OK with that.

My dad served in Korea and he never talked about his service. I really did not know how much he did until he was gone. I really wish I had the opportunity to talk to him about his service today considering how we treat soldiers today. But the interesting thing, every Patriotic Holiday he put an American Flag on our house. He never explained it and commented on it. But what I did gain is a respect for the flag and in my little way I was the Color Guard at Missouri Military Academy back in 87 and 88. And my respect and love for the colors came from my dad. I am glad he passed that on to me without really saying much of a word. The flag from his funeral is still sitting in my Mom's bedroom. This day means a lot to me and I miss my dad.

Enough of this, let us get back to talking football. :(

You bet.

Having said that, our season up here is pretty much done, which is kind of a shame as we've had (for the most part) a very mild fall here, so we could actually play some more games if there were any...gonna be +50F this weekend which is EXTREMELY unusual for this time of year here. We've got some Provincial Semi-finals this weekend and Finals next weekend and then the "big ones" weekend of Nov 28/29.

The Vanier (Cdn College Championship) is in Quebec City 11/28 and the Grey Cup is in Calgary 11/29. Hoping to be assigned to one of the HS Finals next weekend here in Edmonton and I will be at the Grey Cup as a fan for sure...blood alcohol level guaranteed not to be below .08!

No, it's not about player safety. It's about whether he's down. If his forward progress is stopped, then by all means blow your whistle if you want. Because at that point he's down and the ball is dead.

Blowing the whistle doesn't make anyone safer, it's just a recipe for an IW.

Right. Only in Rugby Union (not sure about Rugby League) did they change the tackle rule to include cases of laying on top of another player on the ground, as a type of "electricity" or "contagion".

But that's a textbook case of another way to make a ball in player possession dead, forward progress stopped. It's not an ad hoc ruling, it's part of the rules.

I think what they're saying is that you might rule the runner held with progress stopped sooner under some conditions than under other conditions, based on relative danger.