The coach confessed!

[Reffing Rev.]

Week 6, last Friday night.

I was working R last week for the usual crew, which btw is improving by landslides week in and week out for those who remember my earlier posts. On the way to the game our BJ tells me he got called into our hometown coaches office this week. The coach showed him some video of their game last week to see if a play was legal or not. The play happened to be the way the visiting team in our game that night got an "automatic" first down on every 4th and less than 5.

Here is the play. Any punting situation they would line up unbalanced to wide side of the field, everyone come set hands on knees. On "set" they would all abruptly stand and shift over to a balanced formation. The defense would invariably encroach. Our BJ called it a legal shift, I told him that was not so.

I read for him rule 7.1.7b (reference I think) you know that any act which is clearly intended to cause B to encroach is a false start. I saw no other purpose for this play.

Here we go - pre-game. "Coach, any unusual plays or formations you'd like to let us know about?" He then went on to describe pretty much is entire playbook to us and then said at the end, oh yeah, we run this shift on our punt thing, and he described the play." I had the opportunity then to tell him this was a false start and why.

He smiled and said, "I thought it would be, but we've done it all year without it being called."

It being week 6, I was again disgusted. He's probably had 5 previous crews let this one go.

Do we all agree this is a false start?

[Welpe]

As you describe it, I certainly agree.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Welpe

As you describe it, I certainly agree.

That is a false start, and should be called even if the defense doesn't jump. It's sad to hear he's been getting away with it.

[verticalStripes]

First of all, I wouldn't have one official watch game film with a coach. Allow your league commissioner (or interpreter) to do that.

I saw a coach run a shift like you described for decades and nobody called a foul against the offense.

The offense is allowed to shift when in a 2 point stance. So, the question is "how" they are shifting.

If they are poping up like they are practically making a veritical jump, then no way. Otherwise, it may be legal.

Also, most coaches will continue to "push the envelope" until this called. If you are going to flag it, make sure you point out a specific individual that made the shift illegal, like right tackle number 78. Don't tell the coach that entire offense shifted illegally (although that may be true).

So I had a similar situation on a 4th down except the A was lined up in a normal formation, not punting. Lined up with hands on knees and at a signal by the Qb the entire line quickly went into a 3pt stance. This was not something they had done at all during the game previously, it drew a defender into the neutral zone. I threw the flag and was going to call false start as I was the Line Judge and only saw the tackle and guard on my side do this. Went to my white hat and he said that the entire line did this so it was ok and we should go with the encroachment on B. Being a first year official I wasn't sure and went along with this.

Was my initial thinking correct on this or what we ended up enforcing?

[ajmc]

As has been said, "you can paint a picture of a beautiful woman, but you can't f.........(make love to) it." A coach can describe something he intends to be close to the line, but that doesn't mean it will turn out exactly like he planned.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Jerry Blum

So I had a similar situation on a 4th down except the A was lined up in a normal formation, not punting. Lined up with hands on knees and at a signal by the Qb the entire line quickly went into a 3pt stance. This was not something they had done at all during the game previously, it drew a defender into the neutral zone. I threw the flag and was going to call false start as I was the Line Judge and only saw the tackle and guard on my side do this. Went to my white hat and he said that the entire line did this so it was ok and we should go with the encroachment on B. Being a first year official I wasn't sure and went along with this.

Was my initial thinking correct on this or what we ended up enforcing?

It is a false start. It doesn't matter if they have been doing it all game or not. A legal shift must be slow and deliberate. No player can make a quick or jerky motion which simulates action at the snap. Also it is obvious that A is doing this to cause B to encroach.

[BAlaxer]

So would the old shift the Dallas cowboys ran in the 60's and 70's be called a fals start? They went from a 2pt stance, raisied up and then lowered into a 3pt stance all together.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by BAlaxer

So would the old shift the Dallas cowboys ran in the 60's and 70's be called a fals start? They went from a 2pt stance, raisied up and then lowered into a 3pt stance all together.

Are they simulating action at the snap? Is it a quick and jerky movement? Are they doing it because they are trying to make B encroach?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Are they simulating action at the snap? Is it a quick and jerky movement? Are they doing it because they are trying to make B encroach?

So let me get this straight: you're telling us that we have to use some judgment out there? Just how demanding is this supposed to be?

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by BAlaxer

So would the old shift the Dallas cowboys ran in the 60's and 70's be called a fals start? They went from a 2pt stance, raisied up and then lowered into a 3pt stance all together.

If I remember correctly, they would do that on 1st down as well.

If A is going to do the same thing on 1st & 10 that they are going to do on 4th & Inches, and B jumps then no, I do not have a false start on A. I have encroachment on B

If they are ONLY doing this action on 4th and Inches in an effort to get B to jump and get a 1st down then you ABSOLUTELY have a false start on A.

[TussAgee11]

Just lurking over here in the shadows:

I've seen Duke do something similar for two years now. Everyone gets set, and on QB signal, the TE comes out of 3 pt stance to a complete stand, all WRs break their stance, RBs stand, and QB comes out from center to look at sidelines for signals. I mean it is all at the same exact time, the first time I saw them do it last year it totally surprised me. I've seen a few other college teams do similar things.

Last year Duke did it about 80% of the time, this year, not as much, but they still do it from time to time. I haven't seen it flagged once.

Of course we are talking NCAA here, I'm not sure if FED is different.

And yes, Duke has a football team - one that is 3-3

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

And yes, Duke has a football team - one that is 3-3

They should stop playing today. Give 'em their best winning pct. in decades...

[bigjohn]

ART. 7 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play and before the snap begins,
no false start shall be made by any A player. It is a false start if:
a. A shift or feigned charge simulates action at the snap.
b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.
c. Any A player on his line between the snapper and the player on the end of
his line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground, moves his
hand(s) or makes any quick movement.

I had an officl tell me this year that he was his associations Interpreter and he had never head of the snap down punt being illegal.

Check out page 89 of the 2008 rules book, It is a POE!


The major problem in dealing with false starts is the inconsistency in administration.
Whether or not a false start has occurred, or not, is not predicated upon whether the
defender encroaches or not, or by the down and/or distance. The false start act has to be
judged on its own. The offensive team is obligated to move, shift, or go in motion in such
a manner that does not simulate action at the snap. Whenever the false start causes a
defender to encroach, only the false start is penalized.
After the ready-for-play signal has sounded and all offensive players have assumed their
final set position for the snap, no player shall make a quick and/or jerky movement before
the snap. The purpose for restricting such movement is to discourage action designed to
cause defenders to encroach.
If the offensive team executes a shift in such a manner that simulates action at the snap,
the foul is a false start and not an illegal shift. The manner in which offensive players execute
shifts or go in motion can be fouls for a false start, but never for illegal shifts.
When linemen or backs initially set in an upright position or hands-on-knees position and
then drop into a three- or four-point stance for their final position, the action results in a
false start if it is done in a manner that simulates action at the snap. Such action must be
slow and deliberate.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I've seen Duke do something similar for two years now. Everyone gets set, and on QB signal, the TE comes out of 3 pt stance to a complete stand, all WRs break their stance, RBs stand, and QB comes out from center to look at sidelines for signals. I mean it is all at the same exact time, the first time I saw them do it last year it totally surprised me. I've seen a few other college teams do similar things.

Last year Duke did it about 80% of the time, this year, not as much, but they still do it from time to time. I haven't seen it flagged once.

This is becoming very common with teams who use more of a Air Raid-type West Coast offense. The officials won't flag this action as a false start or illegal shift because all they're doing is coming out of their stance (which these positions can because they're not covered) to receive a signal from the sideline. We had this in a FED game, and we didn't flag it either, because nothing they did fit any of the definitions of false start or illegal shift.