coaches box foul
 

With the new rule on coaches not being in the coaches box during a live ball. If the coach is in the "box" during the play is this a live ball or dead ball foul?

non-player
 

It's a live ball foul, but also a non-player foul, so the enforcement spot is the succeeding spot.

...and I know it may seem like minor semantics, but it is now called the "Restricted Area" - you may want to refer to it as that, especially when talking to coaches about it. If we continue to say "Coaches Box", the coaches may in some subconscious way feel the right to be in that area, even though the rule is changed. If we say "Restricted Area", that gives a clear indication that a coach has no right to be in there (during a live ball).

Good point

This one is going to be a real rough one for this year. 5 years ago you had a tough time keeping a HC off the edge of the playing field, better yet, in the box. I wonder how many long time coaches are going to get hammered on this one throughout the year.

Probably only the few who insist on being unreasonable or irrational.

For the fields that are properly marked - especially those artificial turf fields, it should be pretty easy. The white is clearly marked, so I don't think it will be that big a deal. We did it during spring games and it worked fine. This week we start scrimmages - we'll see how it works out.

At our scrimmage Saturday night, one of the BJ/Wingmen brought up a point.

We were on an artificial surface with the white border. About 10 of our schools have gone to Field Turf in the last 3-4 years. Only two of those stadiums were started from scratch, a third has a track around it and an awesome soccer program so that field is wider. The rest were built on existing fields, inside the confines of the existing stadium.

None of these field's borders have the NFHS specified 2 yards or more restricted area marked. My guess is these borders measure out at about 4 feet wide. One or two fields may be half that.

This BJ began pointing to a soccer sideline beyond the border and declared that was closer to 6 ft and that should be the restricted area if he were on a wing. I responded that the border area, while not within the NFHS specs, was certainly more discernable, and I, a wing, could more than live with that space. Its certainly more room than I've had in the prior 15 years.

I'll be interested to see how well the grass fields are marked. One school in particular is little more than a glorified cow pasture. My feeling is the grass fields will actually be marked to the 2 yd. spec since they have to be painted and those coaches will be further back than games on turf. (Not that I care)

It's a live ball foul, flagged at the snap (if they're still standing in the restricted area at that time) or during the play. Remember the three-tier penalty: Warning on 1st offense, 5-yards on 2nd, and 15-yards USC on head coach subsequent offenses. I was told the other day that a crew actually flagged this about 6 times during a scrimmage, just to teach the team a lesson. I have a feeling the first couple weeks might see some flags for this and then it'll subside.

As an aside, here in NC we have been instructed to have coaches out of the restricted area after the RFP.

And also in NC we've been notified that if an official makes contact in the restricted area during a live ball with a coach, player, or other team personnel, we go to DEFCON 1, flag it, skip the SLW, and assess the USC to the head coach and then follow the normal progression for further sideline infractions.

Yep. Hope tomorrow night goes smoothly in that regard. I have my doubts though :(

I like the approach we're taking in Missouri; I think we'll have few problems. Since the coach is legally allowed to be in the area up to the time the ball is snapped, we aren't going to worry about it at all during the dead ball period. There is really nothing to enforce (other than 3 coach maximum). Once the ball is snapped, our attention must be on the field. We'll catch this when the ball goes near or crosses the sideline. As we run down the sideline or if a player goes out of bounds, the BJ, wing and R will throw the flag if anyone is in the restricted zone.

We will go with the 3 phase approach, even if we run into a coach ( no automatic 15 yards)

Resticted area mechanics
 

Not sure how well it's going to work, but my crew is going to work it this way:

At the ready-for-play signal, the wings (who would be on/near the sideline anyway), will back up to the front line of the team box. A quick glance either way will let them know if anyone is in the restricted area. If necessary, a call of "back up so you are behind me" will be used once or twice. After that, the first flag comes out, and we start counting from there. Once the snap is immenent, the wings move back up to just inside the sideline.

We'll try it out tomorrow night! Any other thoughts on mechanics for this?

The problem is that the when the R signals RFP, the coach is standing in front of you in the box signalling in his play. You tell him to get behind you and he politely but sternly reminds you that he has a perfect right to be there and will continue to stand there until the ball is snapped.

He's called your bluff and you must either flag him for something he's allowed to do or you must back down.

Our state supervisor solved that by setting the time for the coaches to "retreat" back from the restricted area at the RFP whistle. They were told at the state coaches clinic, told in the pre-scrimmage rules clinics, and will be told in the pre-game conference.

As for us, our playoff lives are at stake if he sees film of the rule not being enforced so I'm fairly confident the SLW's will come fast and furious for the next 2-3 weeks.

This is in the Ohio 2009 Season Manual for coaches and officials.

Sideline Safety

The sideline SHALL be clear of all players and coaches from the sideline to six feet outside the sideline. Please review NEW rules 2-3-g and 10-8-3. As a practical application – when the center touches the ball, the restricted area will be clear.


B. There is no longer a “coaches box”. When the ball is live no one shall be within 6 feet of the sideline. When the snapper touches the ball the restricted area will be cleared. All players and coaches shall be in the team box.

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/manual.pdf

OK, that's a NC rule/interpretation so you have to go with it. For the rest of us, I think that would cause more problems that it solves since it's such an agressive approach.

That's fine, but if he's not behind the line at the moment the ball is snapped, he's getting flagged. He doesn't get to "go behind after the snap."

And we will be very aggressive on this during the season. Our playoffs were threatened, too.

Guess it depends on whether his state association will have his back. NC has mandated us to enforce it from the RFP.

I wish the MIAA (massachusetts) would make that a point of emphasis. I'm a linesman, and you wouldnt believe how many assistant coaches think the restricted area is in fact their coaches box.

This subject really burns me. I have no problem with throwing the flag - if they're in my way, they are affecting my ability to call the game. But the problem I have, and this is my problem, is that I flag them, and suddenly I am public enemy #1. And this reputation follows me throughout the year, in every sport I do, and following years. So, for doing the right thing, I get blackballed, and my crew gets blackballed. And since we are assigned games, it only makes the resentment grow. Rant off

It's depressing hearing the crusty 35-year-vets at an association meeting (I belong to 3 and run the meetings this year for 1 of them) tonight talking about "tolerance" and "not going in with guns (flag) a-blazing." Of course, this is all driven by not wanting to pi$$ off the guys who rate them and their precious crews.

I simply don't care. We'll mention it in the pregame with the coaches, I'll have our wings remind them postgame, and they'll get one warning -- the sideline warning. After that, it costs them yardage.

If we're consistent from the first game, this will not be a problem at all within a week or two. And this moment reminds me why it's overboard to belong to 3 groups, too. :D

Since Indiana playoff assignments are done mostly based on coaches' votes, our playoffs could be threatened for enforcing this.

I guess it boils down to how important working a playoff game is to you.

In my experience, a coach may not like when you enforce rules - but they do respect you. If the crew discusses this point of emphasis in their pre-game, and if the R reinforces this point of emphasis during the coaches pre-game, and the wing official reinforces this point of emphasis when he meets the coach before the game - and then the infraction is enforced, the coach will certainly understand. He probably won't like it - but I'm sure he will understand.

I would rather have the coach respect me for being a good official, than like me because I pander to him. I have seen too many times when a coach does a 180 and slams that official that panders to him and is "friendly" with him.

My crew will use the same philosophy on this as we do on all fouls: we're not looking for trouble. It has nothing to do with what the coaches think, because coaches have no input on playoff assignments. I know of no mechanics that have the wing officials looking back over their shoulders either prior to the snap or during the play. My wing officials already work about a yard back from the sideline. If they have room to work during the play, the coaches are probably about two yards back. If they bump into one, it's a flag. Our first responsibility is to officiate the play. Coaches around here have always been good about giving us room to work. I don't expect it to be an issue.

Yet another reason why allowing coaches to have any say on who officiates their games is about the dumbest idea anyone ever came up with.

Coaches should have no say in who gets playoffs and as far as I know in Georgia they do not. Our Officials Group does'nt maintain a "scratch list" and the coaches have no sayso in what officials they get. Granted Im not going to send someone back to a school where there was a problem this year but it won't affect next years assigning.

How about the media?
 

Would a photographer or newspaper reporter roaming the sidelines be subject to this rule? Do you flag the hometeam, even if the "local' guy was roaming the visitors sideline or end zone? Does the responsibility lie with home management to keep them behind the 2 yd. zone the full length of the field?

The progression of penalties or warnings goes to the head coach. So if a reporter is in the box, the head coach is responsible.

Peace

Nope.

See 1-2-3(g): ". . . (persons) affiliated with the team."
9-8-3: "No player, nonplayer, or coach shall be in the restricted area . . ."
2-32-1 & 2-32-10: definitions of "player" and "nonplayer."

You can (and probably should) ask game management to get anyone else out of the restricted area, but you can't flag the coach for reporters or photographers.

You are right, nope!!
 

If there in the restricted area, then they are affiliated with the team. And many photographers are school photographers. I am not sure what you talking about when non-players are people that are still affiliated with the team (Trainers, Athletic Directors, Booster club members) and if they are in that area, I am not asking for ID to find out for sure.

So if a coach does not want anyone in the team box, they need to make sure they are not around in the first place. Then they will not have to worry about who we think is affiliated or not.

Peace

Ok, so how exactly does the visiting coach get the photographer for the home team's local newspaper off his sideline? By force? Can you say lawsuit?

Do not make this too complicated.

The question was what if they are in a person was in the restricted area. The restricted area is directly in the team box area. Anyone in the team box is going to be assumed they are a team member and should be. If I run into someone in that area or an official sees someone in that area, unless I have definite knowledge the warnings or penalties are going to the head coach. And if the visiting team has someone in their area that is not supposed to be there, they need to inform the officials or game management to remove individuals from that area. I have yet to see media people standing in the team box near the sideline. Maybe that is something you have seen, but I have never seen this. Now there might be non-team members outside the box and standing on the sideline, but that is not the restricted area.

And that fact that you are making a bigger issue out of this (lawsuit really??) suggest you missed the entire point of the discussion. ;)

Peace

This is how a discussion can digress to being extreme. I suspect, and would certainly hope, everyone is going to try and work with coaches regarding this rule revision to make it work. I don't think there is any need to alter the current sequence of gentle reminder, followed by a series of sterner reminders until there is reasonable compliance. The new rule might just make the overall interval somewhat shorter

I would expect a visitng coach to notice a photographer in the restriced area, before we might, and would want him out of that area. He might even look for assistance from a wing official if there was a problem. Obviously this would be a game management issue, but if we could be of assistance inconspicuously, we should help.

Charm is likely our best option, but if that fails I've found offering the annoying visitor a choice usually works. He can choose standing where I ask him to stand, or he can stand on the other side of whatever barrier separates the playing field from the spectators. If he's a real jerk, I'll simply stop the game until he removes himself, or game management has him removed. None of that is anything new.

The area more likely to present a photographer in the way problem is in the area of the goal line extended and around the EZ. Most will respond to a gentle reminder, but all MUST respond eventually.

I agree. It's a safety issue. We can ask him to move. I've had photographers on the sideline and done that. We can ask game management to get someone off the sideline. But the one thing we cannot do is flag the head coach for someone over which he has no authority.

We were told to not throw a flag but to stop the game and let the game administator handle non players (TV people, photographers, alumni)

That makes sense. Since it is a safety issue, the contact should be given the most severe penalty: REFCON 1

We have been advised in my state (OH) that the fouls will not accrue against the head coach such that if there are three fouls against three assistant coaches, the head coach would not be ejected. Is that the way the rest of you are working it.

Nope and that is not what the rules say. Then again states have a right to make an interpretation of how they want things handled. And in an administrative situation they really have the right to tell their officials how to do things. But that is clearly not the way the rules are formed.

Peace

A week ago in WI at our WIAA meeting, there was a transparency that showed examples of coaches, players, stat boys, and photographers listed as people that will not be allowed in the box. From that, and the discussion that followed, it was my understanding that the sideline team is responsible for their area.

Rich or anyone else from WI...is that what you were lead to believe..?

Yes, but it's pretty unenforceable if the people aren't affiliated with the team.

This is one situation where I'll simply stop and have them get back OR get removed.

Here in Louisiana, we were directed that coaches can be in the restricted area up until the center touches the ball, then everyone has to be out. Tomorrow are Jamborees(last preseason game) so it will be an interesting next couple of weeks.

This is our instruction in WI too..

The WIAA meeting I was at ended up with this as the process:
1) 1st infraction = flag and SLW
2) 2nd infraction - flag - 5 yd penalty
3) 3rd infraction = flag 15 yd USC1,
4) 4th infraction = flag, 15yd and USC2 w/ejection of HC....
5) if at any point prior to 3rd infraction, there is actual interference (either contact or requiring LJ or L to sidestep ) then go right to 15 yd USC1 .

Lots of guff from coaches at the meeting, but only 1 that was frothing at the mouth. :eek:

Most varsity coaches use a get back coach, so I think the get back coaches job has gotten easier now to keep the players back, and he will notice if more than 3 people are in the box. Most of the fields here are turf and have had the markings updated so I will be looking forward to having a less congested sideline. Im glad the feds changed the rules.

Did anybody check for a pulse on that one??? :D