Touchback/Safety penalty
 

Our crew study group came up with this one tonight...at first I thought it was straight forward but I want to see what you guys think...


The score A-6, B-7 with 1 minute to play in the game. A's ball 4th and goal at the 10. A1 throws a legal forward pass which is intercepted by B1 in the end zone. B1 immediately after making the catch in celebrating his teams stop of A throws the ball which lands at the 20 yard line. B1 was never down.

Ruling:

ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

That is as bad as the play in a state final (I think it was Idaho), where A was ahead by one and the QB wanted to run out the clock and he ran backwards to use up time and ended up in his EZ. He either downed the ball (can't remember the details) or ran out of the back of EZ as time expired.

In the OP, John nailed it. Safety. Or in the current news terminology: the player, "acted stupidly."

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Offside pass subject to penalty. Live ball.

If A recovers, it is their ball.

If B recovers, A will accept the offside pass and give B the ball at the B-20.

doesn't matter that it was incomplete, it was an Illegal FP from the EZ.

ART. 3 . . . A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player
possession during the down.

It doesn't matter that team A put the ball in the end zone, as B committed the foul and it was behind the basic spot.

It was Washington state. The QB was conceding a safety, ran into the end zone and simply dropped the ball. An alert defender fell on it.

Here's my take.
 

I'ld say its a touchback (NFHS rules). Penalty enforced from the 20 yard line.

Here's my logic, feel free to disagree if you have a point to make as its an interesting situation.

Force that put the ball into the endzone was the throwing team, which I think is the main factor in determining touchback or safety. Defender caught the ball in the endzone, still a live ball in the endzone, but the force putting it in the endzone was the offense not defense. When he throws the ball forward, it is an illegal incomplete forward pass (if the opposing team would have caught it, its theirs because its still live till it hits the ground). But since it went incomplete, it became a dead ball with the spot of enforcement the point where he threw the ball, which is still in the endzone. But because the force into the endzone was still originally applied by the other team, its still a touchback and the penalty is enforced from the 20.

Anybody else have any opinions? Not saying I'm right, just my understanding of the rules.

Your answer seems to ignore the COP.

Here's why
 

I'm assuming your referring to BigJohn above


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

But the defender wasn't on offense, they were on defense, so that wouldn't apply, but again the key even in that rule is who forced the ball into the endzone "illegal pass and with the ball having been forced into the end zone by the passing team."

In the situation, the original offense applied the force that put the ball into the endzone. If the defender caught the ball in the field of play, or exited the endzone then went back in, then its a safetly, but if he caught it in the endzone, and never brought it out, and the ball became dead there (upon the incomplete illegal forward pass hitting the ground), its a touchback.

Here's applicable rule
 

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

But it did not become dead there in Bs possession. The ball became dead when the pass fell incomplete.

and it is an Illegal forward pass from the end zone.

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.



SECTION 43 TEAM DESIGNATIONS
ART. 1 . . . The offense is the team which is in possession of the ball. The
opponent is the defense.


Once he caught the ball he was on offense, No?

Read 2-43. The offense is the team in possession of the ball. When Team B intercepts the ball, they are on offense by rule.

So, although the basic spot is the succeeding spot (20 yard line), the All-But-One principle is in affect. The spot of the penalty is in B's EZ. It is a safety.

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

Still the key is force, the team that intercepted still didn't apply the force that put the ball into the endzone.

8.5.1 SITUATION E: A1’s forward pass is intercepted in B’s end zone by B1 who
attempts to advance, but is downed there. B2 clips at B’s 3: (a) during B1’s run,
or (b) after B1 is downed. RULING: It is a touchback in both (a) and (b) and the
basic spot is the succeeding spot. In (a), it is first and 10 for B from B’s 1½-yard
line. In (b), the dead-ball foul will be penalized from B’s 20 resulting in first and
10 from B’s 10-yard line. (8-5-3d; 10-4-4d)

mich, I don't think you are reading that correctly.

The part you ahv eunderlined is part of the clause that starts with "or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined...", which is not the case we have here - presumably A will accept the penalty, and the enforcement spot for that penalty is B's, endzone, hence the first clause applies.

10.4.4 SITUATION B: A1 throws a pass from B’s 22-yard line. B1 intercepts the
pass in his own end zone and is tackled prior to leaving the end zone. During the
run, B2 holds A2 at B’s 10-yard line. RULING: The basic spot is the 20-yard line.
If the penalty is accepted, it will be enforced from the spot of the foul. B will have
a first and 10 from its own 5-yard line. If the penalty is declined, it will be B’s first
and 10 from B’s 20-yard line.

Neither casebook play has the foul occuring in the end zone after the COP; they're both in the field of play. The foul in the OP is enforced from the spot of the foul. Since the foul occured in the EZ, I've got a safety.

I agree Val, just showing the casebook plays that are close. I think there needs to be at least one casebook play where the foul occurs in the EZ.

Which is exactly what we have here. The rules 10-4-6 and 10-4-7 simply help define the basic spot for very specific plays.

In this situation, Team B is now considered the offense because they are in possession of the ball. The offense committed the foul and it is enforced from the endzone, which is a safety.

There is a case that is similar that involves momentum.

CASE 8.5.2, Situation F part (d).

B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.

RULING: In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot resulting in a safety.

So, even though the basic spot is not in the end zone, the foul, which is behind the basic spot is in the end zone resulting in a safety.

I think michrefdh needs to resolve the difference between offense/defense and Team A/B, and the difference between basic spot and spot of penalty enforcement.

Still I see a conflict with this rule.

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.

Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."


The example above is intercepted in the field of play. Still no case here involving the fact that the initial force putting the ball in the endzone was A. B whether on defense or now offense, never had possession outside of the endzone and they didn't apply the force, so if the ball becomes dead as above in B's possession, shouldn't it still be a touchback?

Mich - you're right, the casebook doesn't cover this exactly. But, you've also got a classic all-but-one enforcement here.

10-4, article 6: The basic spot is the 20 yard line for ouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

All fouls but one are enforced from the basic spot. That one foul is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, which are enforced from the spot of the foul. That's exactly what we have here, so the foul is enforced from the spot of the illegal forward pass. Since that spot's in the EZ, we've got a safety.

ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone




or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.


The penalty is not going to be declined so this part doesn't matter. If the penalty is declined it is a Touchback.

This provision is assuming no foul by B after the COP. No foul, touchback. Foul in the endzone, safety. Easy.

Safety
 

Guys-

1) He threw an illegal forward pass because it was, a pass after team possession had changed during a down! 7-5-2a

2) It is a safety because A player on offense comitted a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enforcment is from the endzone. 8-5-2c

3) It is NOT a touchback because A forward pass intercepted in B's end zone DID NOT become dead there in B's possession 8-5-3d

So you are saying the coach is right and the WH is wrong?

LOL!!! Blind Hog, I know!

Huh? :confused:

Hey thanks for the discussion here.

I see the valid points from both opinions, like I said originally, I'm not saying I am right. Its a situation that I think could use a better case evaluation to clarify this specific situation. I still think that the issue of force is a factor, but thanks for the discussion. 4 more weeks!!!!

Force is not a factor here because it doesn't matter who put the ball in the endzone. Team B screwed up by committing a foul in the end zone and this foul is enforced under all but one. This foul is the "but one", which is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot. That foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. The spot of the foul in this play is Team B's own endzone and it will be enforced from the endzone, resulting in a safety. Force is not a factor in any of this.

This is the same as if Team B intercepts a pass in their own endzone, and the runner returns the ball to, for example, the B25 but a Team B player holds an A player in the endzone. This is also a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, so it is also enforced from the endzone and is a safety.

ART. 3 . . . If the penalty for an illegal forward pass is accepted, measurement
is from the spot of such forward pass. If the offended team declines the distance
penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal
incomplete forward pass or (if the illegal forward pass is caught or intercepted)
of having the ball put in play as determined by the action which followed the
catch.

Great discussion...

Our crew of 6 was divided 3-3 on this one. Well actually it was 3-2-1 at first.

The one odd-ball opinion was that the intercepting player abandoned play (much like a scrimmage kick receiver who thinks he signalled fair catch and doesn't run). So he wanted to call it a touchback and then administer a dead ball USC penalty. 1st and 10 at the 10.

3 of us, myself included want to apply that new rule from a couple years ago (I can't remember the number and I don't have any books handy) the one previously quoted that says something along the lines of the basic spot is the 20 when the team in possession commits a foul in the end zone and the opponents are responsible for the force...etc. Now I know that this foul should be enforced from the spot of the foul since it is behind the basic spot. I was however reluctant to call it a safety since the force which propelled the ball into the end zone (not what caused it to become dead there) was the original legal pass. But I am almost convinced that force does not matter in this play since the ball was 'brought' out of the end zone.

The other 2 were safety from the beginning one of them saying, "He's an idiot and deserves to give up 2 points."

I'm still not quite so sure...if it happened tonight I would call it a safety, and look for the police escort.

Another question
 

OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

5. A double foul results only when both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer,
during the same live-ball period or if team possession changed during the down and the foul by
the team in final possession was prior to the change or if there were a change of possession and
the team in final possession accepted the penalty for its opponent’s foul.

If B declines A’s foul, the play results in a safety 2 points for A and B kicks to A. If B accepts A’s foul, it’s a double foul and we have a do over. A’s ball at the previous spot.
Either way because B fouled they loose.

michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.:(

What actually happended in your play is the offense, no longer B, (See 2-43-1 & 2-43-2) actually committed a foul in there own endzone. And since, a player on offense committed a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enfocement is from the spot of the foul, 8-5-2c IS the applicable rule, and, the result of your study group play IS a safety.:)

Again, read Rules 2-43-1 & 2-43-2 and it should help clear the air.

Oh and michrefdh, that is not just an opinion as you previously suggested,
rather, that IS the correct application of NFHS rulies! :cool:

I hope this helps.

Casebook 10.4.6.B is the closest I can find to this play.

B1 intercepts A's pass in B's EZ, B2 clips A9 at B's 10-yard line after the change of possession. B1 then fumbles in B's EZ and the ball rolls out of the EZ and out of bounds at B's 2 yard line. RULING: The penalty is enforced under the all-but-one principle. The end of the run is the goal line and the basic spot is the 20-yard line. The penalty would be enforced half the distance, fista and 10 got B on the 5 yard line.

It's not quite analagous, since in the casebook play the penalty happened in the field of play, but it reinforces that the foul in this case is enforced as a spot foul under all-but one.

Though actually, I think somebody quoted this rule earlier, and I can't see why this wouldn't apply:

10-5-4: If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

B's become the offensive team by gaining possession of the ball, and committed an illegal forward pass from the EZ. Right?

Double foul, replay the down.

10-2-1: It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period in which:
c. There is a change of possession and the team in final possession accepts the penalty for it's opponent's foul at any time during the down.

If B declines the face mask, their penalty is enforced from the EZ, resulting in a safety. They're not going to do that, so they'll accept A's penalty and offset the fouls.

Another question then.
 

[QUOTE=KWH;618235]michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.:(

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

[QUOTE=michrefdh;618254]Not a problem at all, Mich - this is how we improve!

You're correct that - without a penalty - 8-5-3-d is what would apply in this situation. The penalty in any case changes that, though. After B gains possession, if they commit a foul in their own EZ, that penalty (if accepted) will result in a safety. They've committed a foul behind the basic spot (the 20 yard line for a touchback, or the end of the run if the ball is run out of the EZ), and any time a penalty is enforced from a spot in the "offense's" EZ, it's a safety.

Let's change this up just a bit: same play, but after B1 intercepts the ball, B2 commits a hold at the 10 yard line. B1 is tackled in the EZ. B still has a touchback, and would normally get the ball at their 20. However, the penalty at the 10 is behind the basic spot, so the hold is enforced from there. Half the distance from the spot of the foul puts the ball on B's 5 yard line, 1-st and 10 for B.

The key issue when B commits a foul in this situation where a TB would normally apply is "where is the foul"? If the foul is downfield (B's 21 yard line to A's goal line), the penalty is enforced from the basic spot of the 20. If the penalty is committed behind the B20, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul, whether in the field of play or in the EZ.

Lots of rules apply given that no foul occurred. For example, if A has the ball 1/10 and gains 12 yards, by rule they get a new series. But wait: A1 held during the down at the LOS: now that rule doesn't apply, and we go to the penalty enforcement rule. Everyone knows this.

What's harder to explain is why you don't see that the same principle applies to the rule you keep quoting, and why you seem to think that the rules "conflict." There's no conflict here: one case has no foul and one rule applies; another case has a foul, and a different rule applies.

[QUOTE=michrefdh;618254][QUOTE=KWH;618235]michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.:(

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

While I fully understand where you ae going, the offense STILL committed a foul, and therefore 8-5-3d is NOT applicable, 8-5-2c and 10-5-4 are the applicable rulings. - Safety
And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

No. The offense still committed a foul in their own end zone, 8-5-3d is not applicable, 8-5-2c and 10-5-4 are the applicable rulings. - Safety

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

I understand your point.
Perhaps 8-5-3d could have some additional wording added to the end such as: l...unless 10-5-4 is applicable

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

I fully understand.
However, sometimes in NFHS logic one rule trumps another rule.
For an example, read rule 8-2-1a, b, and c. All of these are examples of how to score a touchdown. However, we all know that if the scoring team fouled prior to scoring they don't get to keep the points even though it does not say that anywhere in Rule 8-2-1.

I hope this makes some sense.

Thanks KWH
 

KWH

Thanks for the explanations and the discussion.

I am just getting back into working HS football this year after a hiatus of over a decade. So perhaps there have been some interim changes that I'm still trying to catch up with.

Back when I did it before, as I remember it, the force rule was basically that if you weren't responsible for the force putting the ball in the endzone (especially for B) then it couldn't be a safety. Not sure if that was correct back then, or not. I'm still working on the rule books, but the main thing I'm having trouble with is perhaps all the interim yearly changes over the past decade.

Do you know, or is there any source for looking up those past yearly rule changes?

Interesting! He must also be a baseball umpire. So he's saying the player's behavior will be taken constructively as if he had said, "Down." Is this one where the officials huddle and the R says: "It would really simplify things if one of you heard him say `down' before he threw the ball."?

Robert

Robert-

Perhaps the umpire should yell "PLAY ON" :)

Don't be so quick to make B's choice! If they were leading by enough in the 4th period with little time left and A close to B's goal line, they might well be happy to give up the safety and free kick. They might even want to do so regardless of the score and time left.

Robert

michrefdh-

This site gives you a pretty good summary.

NCAA and NFHS Football Rules and Rules Changes Index - Football.Refs.Org

Also, the NFHS Football Handbook has a good review.

But often the rules have to spell out the order in which things are resolved. For instance, with change of possession before a live ball foul, the CoP is "preserved" in the administration of the penalty. However, when A advances the ball beyond the line to gain before a live ball foul, the penalty choice & enforcement is administered before it is determined whether there's a new series and before setting a new line to gain. So it's not unreasonable to ask that the rules be explicit about safety/touchback and penalties. Actually I think this one is explicit about that, because there's no other way to read the penalty provision specific to that case, but it would be reasonable to ask that the other apparently applicable rule explicitly reference it as an exception.

Robert

Didn't we have a discussion like that here (or maybe it was in rec.sport.officiating) regarding NCAA rules where a player catches an opponent's kick in R's end zone, and, thinking the ball is dead, tosses it to an official or leaves it on the ground?

Robert

"Play on" were the magic words used after the clock expired for an untimed down. ;)