BIB and safety

[Mike L]

in consideration of some comments made elsewhere.....

Is a BIB really a safety issue? Or is it more just an unfair blocking issue because the player has little to no opportunity to fend off the block?

Every other "safety" type foul carries a 15 penalty. The BIB used to be clipping and was essentially downgraded to what we have now, a 10 yd penalty, just like a hold and all the other blocking type fouls that I don't think anyone views as a safety issue.
How many injuries have been caused due to a BIB? I've never seen one. I suppose if the defender is standing there and the blocker blasts him from the back you could have a problem. But I'd be willing to bet 99.9% of the BIBs we see are when the blocker is beat and he simply reaches out to push the defender out of the play.

[bossman72]

It's definitely a safety issue. The defender cannot defend himself when he his hit from behind. I've seen a dislocated shoulder, ACL tear, stingers, and rolled ankles caused by BIB's.

[Welpe]

The defender also can't defend himself from many sideblocks but those aren't illegal either.

[Texas Aggie]

By far, most injuries occur on legal blocks. So it isn't a safety issue any more than football the game is a safety issue. I would also argue that blocking below the knees from the side (legal -- at least in NCAA) is more dangerous than from the back (illegal in all codes). So in this sense, we could argue all day about what is truly an unsafe block, legal or illegal, and what isn't.

BIB is a 10 yard penalty and like holding, should be flagged at the point of attack only -- or at least, only then and in very limited other situations. If the BIB is 10 yards behind a runner, for example, we ignore it. Of course, we play by NCAA rules and get input from college conferences on how to enforce certain things. Fed may want that called but I would have a real hard time flagging that play under any code.

[Jim D.]

Here are some comments from the NFHS Offical's Manual -

The basic requirement for all sports officials is courage. When there are infractions, officials must penalize promptly and consistently. Vigilant administration of the playing rules permits no tolerance for fouls, infractions or violations. Regardless of the pressure from fans, coaches or players, officials must have the courage to call fouls as they occur. When officials accept a game assignment, their responsibility is definite. The protection and welfare of the player is paramount and with this there can be no compromise. Officials who fail to promptly discharge their responsibility of penalizing for infractions are unqualified to officiate interscholastic contest.

[Mike L]

And how exactly does this apply to the subject at hand?

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Mike L

And how exactly does this apply to the subject at hand?

I thought the NF comments made an interesting counter-point to the comment "If the BIB is 10 yards behind a runner, for example, we ignore it."

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

in consideration of some comments made elsewhere.....

Is a BIB really a safety issue? Or is it more just an unfair blocking issue because the player has little to no opportunity to fend off the block?

Every other "safety" type foul carries a 15 penalty. The BIB used to be clipping and was essentially downgraded to what we have now, a 10 yd penalty, just like a hold and all the other blocking type fouls that I don't think anyone views as a safety issue.

Actually for a long time after clipping (which is a danger to ACLs of the knee) was banned, blocking in the back above the waist was legal; but that was when the hands & arms had to be kept close to the body in blocking. BIB as a specific foul (part of illegal use of hands) came about when use of the hands in blocking was liberalized; as a compromise, it was allowed only on the opponent's trunk in front. I'm not sure whether BIB as a more general foul (even if the hands & arms are kept close to the body in blocking) was adopted along with it immediately, or only after one or more seasons, in Fed.

How many injuries have been caused due to a BIB? I've never seen one. I suppose if the defender is standing there and the blocker blasts him from the back you could have a problem. But I'd be willing to bet 99.9% of the BIBs we see are when the blocker is beat and he simply reaches out to push the defender out of the play.

It was never considered a safety issue before it was outlawed. However, reaching out and pushing was illegal use of hands by the offense, regardless of whether the push was in front or back. So now it's legal in front, and still not in back, but in addition, a pure body block in back is also illegal.

Robert

[Jim D.]

In answer to the original question, I was always told and I'm sure I've read somewhere that BIB and clips were saftey issues, which is why they are illegal. The runner can't see them coming and can't brace for them. That's the only difference between the illegal block in the back vs. the legal one in the side or front. (When clipping was made illegal a block below the waist from the front was still legal.)

Obviously a bump or slight push from the back is not a dangerous play, but a hit from the hard enough to knock a player down or seriously off balance would be a saftety issue. At least is seems to be in the eyes of the rules makers.

[Forksref]

3 options:

1 - Foul
2 - No foul
3 - Talking to

All 3 are JUDGMENT CALLS

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

In answer to the original question, I was always told and I'm sure I've read somewhere that BIB and clips were saftey issues, which is why they are illegal.

After-the-fact justif'n. Clipping was outlawed 60-70 years before BIB was.

[Forksref]

Do I see officials actually debating safety?

I hope that doesn't influence how you call a foul. Yikes.

[Mike L]

Of course it influences whether a call is made or not!!!
Safety related fouls are called no matter where they happen on the field. Non-safety related fouls are usually called only at the point of attack and if they actually did something to gain an unfair advantage.
Or do you call holds that occur on the opposite side of the play?

The debate is, is a BIB a safety related foul?

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The debate is, is a BIB a safety related foul?

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It sounds like since some do not view it as a safety issue, that it shouldn't be called as much.

I believe it is a safety-related foul, depending on the severity of it. e.g., if I see a BIB that is a push in the back away from the play, I am not calling it. That is a #3 above. If the guy flattens the other guy with a BIB, even if it is away from the play, it is a #1 above. If a guy pushes the opponent in the back and it affects the play, I am calling it.

And...it is not an offense v. defense case as I have called BIB on the defense before.

IMHO, it IS a safety issue and the guy who got flattened was no longer safe on the field regardless of where it occurred.

[mbyron]

As was said in the other thread, BIB should be flagged if it occurs:
(a) at the point of attack, no matter how severe, since it then confers an unfair advantage, or
(b) when it rises to the level of a PF, no matter where it occurs, since it then becomes a safety issue.

That makes sense to me. Notice that these two principles are quite different: one doesn't care how severe it is, the other doesn't care where it occurs.

BIB can be called on grounds of safety (which is always important), but the foul is defined independently of that concern.