Ending the Half
 

I don't know if its the offseason rust or what, but I thought I would post this on here to see what kind of response I'd get. This will be based on high school rules:

With :10 seconds left in the half, B committs a live ball foul. At the end of the down, the clock is stopped with :06 seconds left to administer the penalty. The play had ended inbounds. Following the penalty administration, the R winds the clock, the remaining :06 seconds run off before A attempts to snap the ball, and time runs out for the half.

Is the half over, or do we have to run one untimed down? I know how the rule is worded, Rule 3.3.3.A. However, I think that would only apply if during the down where the foul occurred that the time ran out during that down.

Is this correct?

Yes. I've always found it helpful, when explaining the penalty options to the offended Captain, to include explaining the timing elements, that the clock will start on the Ready for Play, but if time expires before he can get the play off, he'll be entitled to an untimed down.

Agreed. Time does not have to expire during the down. Time can subsequently expire and you will still have an untimed down.

I hope the mechanics are common sensical: that you simply let team A play thru, regardless of the expiration of time. (Like the ordinary termination of a period in Canadian football.)

Mechanics that would be stupid-sensical would involve whistling at 0:00, shooting a gun off, sounding a siren, beating a gong, and then telling A's captain, "Oh, by the way, you get an untimed down now."

Robert in the Bronx

The best way I think to handle this situtation is to tell both coaches a play will be run regardless of the clock; otherwise, you have the teams come to the line, the clock runs out, you have to explain there will be a play. Of course, the boo-birds will be yelling, "the clock expired ref."

Hey, we'll have none of that. So, what's the signal for a half-timed/half-untimed down?

Sorry Robert, but that's a lousy idea. Allowing the game to simply continue, without the ball being snapped, after the clock has expired is a sure way to crerate a cluster f**k. You can be guaranteed that either someone on the offense will question what's going on and more inappropriately, of the defense will think the game (period) is over and let up, or both.

You simply whistle everytning stopped at 0:00, announce to both teams that there will be an untimed down, (even if you've already explained that to both captains during the explanation of the penalty options) declare the ball RFP, and play on.

Last Timed Down
 

A foul during the last timed down...a down is the action which begins with a legal snap and ends when the ball becomes dead by rule...

2 plays for you to consider

Play 1: Team A is downed in bounds with a first down and 6 seconds left. B99 piles on and gets a flag. Clock starts on the ready and expires before the ball is snapped. Is there an untimed down?

Play 2: During a run by A1 B99 tackles A1 by the face mask. After penalty enforcement the clock is started on the ready for play with 30 seconds left. As A sets in their formation A77 false starts with 10 seconds left on the game clock. After penalty enforcement the clock starts again on the ready, and time expires before the ball is snapped. Is there an untimed down?

My answers : Play 1 = no, Play2 = yes (But I will crucify the coach who uses that to his advantage)

Look at Signal 1. Basically point straight up and circle your finger.

Why couldn't that have been explained to the captains along with the penalty enforcement? Are you saying the above mechanic is better even if the teams have come to the line, and for all you know the ball could be snapped 1 sec. after 0:00, and then you actually whistle and make the ball unready for play just to tell them it's an untimed down and ready for play??! How about letting team B bring on subs during that interval while you're at it, now that they've seen A's formation?

Of course that makes a new 25 sec. clock in Fed, so if team A was still huddling instead of the scenario above you're giving them extra time to get ready.

Would you change your mechanic if there was no official period time visible? Or would you actually say, "I must prevent your play to inform you that my watch says no time left for the period, which is inconsequential because this play is untimed. Play on."?

Robert in the Bronx

When was the last time you had captains actually listen during the penalty enforcement discussions? :rolleyes:

But that's for an untimed down. If it's half-timed and half-untimed should I just use a different finger. :D

Missed the tongue-in-cheek question. I guess if you are going to ad lib the rules, you can create your on signal. So I think the signal is left to the referee's discretion.

Common sense
 

The common sense officiating thing would be to not start the clock until the snap in that situation.

I'm a big fan of common sense applications of rules, sometimes getting too technical gets in the way of being fair and officiating by the spirit of the rules. If you wind the clock and then have to have an untimed down after the clock reads 0:00, you are just asking for confusion and problems.

Nevwer let the rules book get in the way of a good ball game!!!
 

WRONG!
Using your "common sense application of the rules" and thereby completly disregarding the direction of the rules book, "could" conceivably allow the offense to get in two quick plays!
This application would not only be an incorrect timing allocation but could give the offense an unearned additional play.
I think you are much better following the "time proven" written timing rules provided in the Rules Book for this, and any other situation.

I've not have had the pleasure of this situation in any game in my long career, so for those who have, just what did you do?

Let's just use the same scenario, with 6 seconds left, you whistle the RFP and wind the clock, team-A just stands there... Time Expires... the horn goes off.

Did you now... keep the teams on the field... issue the whoopy-doo signal (*S1) and whistle in another RFP?

Or did you just tell team-A (qb) that you have 19 seconds to snap the ball?

Just curious. I know the rule, just not sure how to apply it.

If the captains failed to explain your message to the teams, or they forgot, and there was some visible or audible indication of official time's expiration, and the players started to look confused, couldn't you just yell, "Play on!"?

Robert

If the White Hat has a Mike, no problem...
 

Thiesey-
Turn on the Mike and announce: An accepted live ball foul occured during the last timed down of the period. By rule, the period shall be extended by one untimed down. (The whoopy-doo (*S1) signal shall be given during the announcment! )
If no mike, gather the players and explain the situation, give them a short moment, and give the ready-for-play.
Of course, if either team requests a time-out, (and has one available) it should be granted!



PM to Robert Goodman: Have you been hitting the sauce??? :eek::confused::eek:

Actual exp
 

I actually was working wing several years ago with similar situation (matter of a few seconds left, can't remember exactly how many) and my white hat did exactly what I put in my previous answer, above with regards to "common sense". Started the clock on the snap instead of winding it, rather than running out time and doing a "whoopty-doo" untimed down, and confusing the players, coaches and fans. To me thats still the most logical common sense thing to do in that situation. I don't think anybody even gave that situation a second thought.

Actually I think I'm one of few in this thread who isn't making a big tsimmes out of something that doesn't deserve it. Why should extreme measures be needed to explain this situation more than any other one in the game? If the players don't do their part in understanding what's going on when things were explained along with enforcement of the penalty, that's their problem.

My perspective may be colored by the types of games I'm used to, where there's no official time visible, and little or no audience. I think many of your opinions are colored by the opposite perspective to the degree that you think you're emceeing a game show rather than administering a game. As far as I'm concerned, your obligation is to the players, and any other benefit that someone who happens to be in the vicinity derives from your job is a mere side effect. If the clock goes to 0:00, the fire siren, church bells, and cannon all go off, and the crowd goes wild because they don't understand what's going on, that's their problem, and if the players are influenced by them, that's their problem.

Robert

For what it's worth. Include advising the offended captain of when the clock will start if the penalty is accepted, and what will happen if the clock expires (untimed down or not) so he can make the proper decision. If the situation calls for an untimed down if the clock expires, I explain that fact to the captain of the opponent, usually in the presence of most of his teammates, so they are appropriately prepared for what may happen.

If the clock runs out and no play starts, I'll stop the clock, announce to both teams that we're going to have an untimed down, give the appropriate signal and whistle the ball RFP and life goes on.

big tsimmrs? Extreme measures? emceeing a game show? Yelling "Play on" after the clock hits ZERO and the ball has yet to be snapped?"

Robert, I truly believe you may need to look in the mirror.
Games are played by the rules and your job is to admisiter the rules as they are written. I believe it may be benificial for you to re-read Rule 3 in both the Rules Book and the Case Book, actually listen to officials with more experiance, AND stop trying to re-invent the wheel! If you do so, it may be possible someday for you to advance beyond the level of games where "there's no official time visible, and little or no audience".

You're depending on the captains to figure things like this out? Really? Yelling "play on" despite everyone thinking the game is over. Now, that will keep everyone from being confused all right.
How about instead the WH just doing his job and going quickly to both benches to give the coaches an explanation before winding the clock? If the coaches fail to communicate to their players, well that's not my problem is it? My concern about fans knowing what's going on is really low on the priority scale.

What is the procedure for crucifiction?


And what is the signal?

I've had this happen a couple of times. In the first situation, I told both teams before the ready that if time expired, the offense was still going to be allowed to play the down. And they understood and played the down.

In the second situation, the was SO MUCH confusion that I blew my whistle, explained to both teams (and both coaches) that we had to run an untimed down. I then blew another ready-for-play once they all understood that one more play needed to be run. They didn't understand WHY but they played the down.

No specific mechanic. The signal is like UC, but droop your head. :D

Because you have one of those fancy ones that go into negative numbers?

Any idea why so much difference in understanding between the two games?

If this is really a problem for some, and you have visible official time, then you can do as they do in labor contract negotiations, and stop the clock at 1 sec. before "midnight".

Robert

This seems like a communication issue with players and coaches. Rule 3-4-2-b state you start the clock with the RFP. Would it be best to notify captains and coaches immediately, let the offense line up and then start the clock? :06 seconds should be enough time to get a play off. The defense caused the foul so it should be up to the coach to send in subs during penalty enforcement to match up with the offense.

Huh?

If the contract expires at midnight and they want to extend negotiations, they pretend it hasn't expired yet and say they've stopped the clock in the negotiating room.

It would seem that stopping at :01 would satisfy the desideratum of not making it appear the period has ended while also not creating an artifact of providing extra time for more plays to be run.

Robert

Huh?

True. Those desiderata, however, are not those of football rules as written.

Not likely
 

I suppose you could propose this fantasy evolution of yours as a rule change, but be sure and include shouting "Play on"
because, even the Rules Committee enjoys a bit of humor. :rolleyes:

I don't see why my common sense procedures are funny, while you can imagine keeping a straight face while whistling the teams off the ball at 0:00 to inform them there will be an untimed down -- which you'd already told them seconds earlier. It's like you want to penalize brain damaged players while benefiting the clueless.

As to stopping the clock at 0:01 -- which is really only another remedy for the clueless that's less disruptive and potentially game-changing than the ridiculous stop-and-start mechanic above -- yes, it's legal. The visible clock will show official time up to that point, and then become unofficial, decorative only. It's a measure to prevent one of those (unofficial) horns from going off and confusing your poor players.

Robert

The dreaded horn
 

Oh yes the horn.
It would be virtually impossible for the horn to go off during the untimed down perscribed in the Rules Book (and supported by ALL-but-one person on this thread) as the clock would read 0:00 when the ball is snapped and the horn would have already sounded while the ball was dead rior to the snap, again, as per the Rules Book.
However, using the "Modified Robert Goodman 0:01 plan", the horn would sound 1 second after the ball is snapped.

Huh? Given the options, I'll go with the rules as written as they seem to make more sense.

I understand Robert's point of view. I have had untimed downs that have confused players, coaches, fans, and clock operators. I still don't think this confusion warrants a modification to the rule. Inconsistant application of the rules will create more confusion in the long run.

Because if they're ready to snap the ball and (as stated by some participants in this thread) the clock's hitting 0 and/or a horn going off tends to confuse some players, then why should they be subjected to the horn's going off at that time? And if it goes off 1 sec. after the ball's put in play, what harm is done? Mind you, I think the whole notion of catering to such poor att'n to be extreme, and that explaining things beforehand to the captains should be enough, so I introduced the "labor negotiation" solution of "0:01" only as a harmless compromise.

And are you kidding me, or is this procedure of preventing play at 0:00 and signaling RFP again actually in the rule book, and does anything I wrote contradict anything in the rule book?

Robert

Stopping the play to mention that there is one more play is among the stupidest things I've ever heard of.

Ask and ye shall recieve
 

The NFHS Rule is: 3-3-3
The NFHS Case Play is: 3.3.3 SITUATION B

Not found in any NFHS publications!!!

Not found in any NFHS publications!!!

God save the Queen!
 

You are certainly entitled to you opinion, eh!

But, have you ever worked a game of football where the offense gets 4 downs to make a the line-to-gain, does not have a centre line, is not played with a full stripe ball, does not allow a team to score a "Single" (Rouge), does not have a foul call "Objectionable Conduct", does not have 25 yard endzones, and one half of le-rules book is not in printed in French?

Good day, eh! :cool:

The clock reads 0:00 all through overtime and nobody cares.

I just read through this thread today. I have had this happen. I wind, stop play at 0:00, announce an untimed down, and give the RFP. Not once was this seen as anything other than NOT a big deal.