How do you identify eligible/ineligible recievers?
 

Please respond

Is he an end?
Is he a back?
Is he wearing an eligible number?

Three simple rules
 

1) Jersey numbers 50 thru 79 are always ineligible regardless of their position on the field.
2) The two players on the end of the line of scrimmage are eligible unless they are wearing 50-79.
3) Any and all players not on the line of scrimmage are eligible unless they are wearing 50-79.

To be eligible you must meet two criteria:

1) Have a number between 1 and 49 or 80 and 99 (eligible by number)
2) Be in an eligible position -- on and end or in the backfield (eligible by position)

You have to be eligible by number and position; otherwise, you are ineligible.

Are you asking about MECHANICS of which crew member(s) identify eligibles and ineligibles? Or are you asking about the rules of who is eligible or not eligible? The rule portion of your question has been answered above.

im pretty much asking both

Determining eligibles is primarily the responsibility of the wings - the Head Linesman and the Line Judge. It's pretty simple. First of all, numbers 50 through 79 are ineligible no matter where they are (we won't get into 4th down numbering exceptions now). By position, backs and ends are eligible so....

You have to look at the player on the end of the line on your side, he could be split wide on in tight, but whoever in on the end is eligible (assuming proper number). Make note of him.

Second, look to see who is on the line inside him. If its' an illegible number (it's usually a tackle numbered in the 70's) then no problem. You don't have to track or remember him. If it's an eligible number and he's covered (inside the end and on the line) make note of his number and see where he goes on a pass play. If he goes downfield on a pass that crossed the line, you have a foul. This usually happens when a wide out sets up on the wrong side of the field or a player, who should be in the backfield, mistakenly lines up or shifts to the line.

You also need to note the backs on your side (see the keys in the official's manual on who you have to track.)

That's pretty much it. As far as eligible/ineligible goes, the only worry you have is tracking a player with an eligible number who is lined up in an ineligible position.

Example, 88 is split wide on the line. 86 is on the line inside him. You are probably the only one on the crew who will know 86 is ineligible. The BJ can't always tell if 88 is on the line or not. Once the ball is snapped and 86 goes down field, there is no way for anyone to tell if he's eligible so you better have noted it and watched him.

It's also good to remember who your eligible were in case there is a question. If a coach or even another official suggest that number 88 or number 32 wasn't eligible, you can tell them that 88 was on the end and 32 was legally in the backfield. If they ask about 88 and you have a blank look on your face, you have problems.

Try to get into the habit of looking at shirt numbers as they break the offensive huddle so you can pick out your eligibles as early as possible. If you see only one eligible number coming your way, then you are expecting the guy to be on the line.
If you see two (or more) coming your way, then you expect one on the line and one off the line. If they mess up and both are on the line, be sure to know what the "covered" guy does if there is a pass across the NZ. He may be ineligible downfield. Only the wing guys can catch this - the Umpire will only be checking the 50-79 numbered guys being too far downfield.

Note-In this scenario, young officials (or not so young) must be cautious to wait for the pass before dropping the flag. I've seen officials throw the flag as soon as the ineligible goes down field. Under Murphy's law, if you jump the gun you can guarantee that no pass will be thrown. Then you get to explain to the Referee the situation and the flag is then waved off.

Exceptions
 

However, you will also get into numbering exceptions--when teams do not have to have 5 players 50-79 in the game. This occurs in scrimmage kick formations and can cause trouble if people (and especially the U in this situation) are not paying attention.

This is also how the California coach was able to run his A-11 formation where he has all eligible numbers on the field and his formation will determine who is eligible and who is not for every down.

So just to be sure we are on the same page.......The two players on the ends of the line ARE eligible provided they are wearing an eligible number, Everyone in the backfield IS eligible provided they are wearing a eligible number, and everyone else is INELIGIBLE. (Assuming that its not forth down)

Am I Correct?

If I am, If one of the two ends or both of the two ends is off the line of scrimmage are they still eligible?

First down, fourth down, it doesn't matter. A player's eligibility is determined my number and position. The number of the down has no relevance.

If a player is not on the line of scrimmage he can not be an end.

One of the most common points of confusion relating to understanding football rules is getting tied up in the "language" of football.

There are hundreds of terms or descriptions that capably and effectively describe very specific situations that simply cannot, or at the least should not, be used to describe other situations.

A commonly misused term is "end". Every line, including those in football has two ends, one on one side, one on the other. There are two inseparable requirements for any player, who is on the line of scrimmage to be eligible to catch a forward pass; he has to be standing on the outside edge, the "end" of either side of the line and wear a number between 1-49 or 80-99.

A "Back", basically, is anyone not on the line and behind it (Actual definition is NF: 2.32.3). If that back also wants to be eligible to catch a forward pass, he too, has to be wearing a number between 1-49 or 80-99.

If a player is wearing an eligible number, and is anywhere on the LOS, but either end, he's not eligible by position. If #88 lines up on one end, and #22 shifts to a position wider towards the sideline, and makes the mistake of moving up to the LOS, he's still an eligible receiver but he's taken eligibility away from #88, who is no longer on the end of the line.

Now, as often happens, when #22 steps up to the line, #88 takes a full step back, establishing himself as a "back", and he retains his pass catching eligibility.

Everyone harps on reading Rule 2, becuase it's so important to know and understand what the "official" definitions actually are. Thery are the only definitions that count and may be ever so slightly different than definitions all sorts of people use to try and describe things.

There is simply no getting around knowing and understanding Rule 2.

ok I think im starting to get it. Thank you guys for clarifying what an "End" is. Now that its clear that the two ends are eligible by position, is EVERYONE who is a back eligible by position as well?

Also, If I see an ineligible downfield on pass where would I throw the flag and how would it be enforced? and If that ineligible reciever caught the pass does the ineligible downfield on pass penalty convert to illegal touching or is the opposing team givin the option?

Have you ever considered talking to a professional, Jaybird, related to your compulsion about counting words, or are you just trying to mimmick a gnat?

The frequency of ineligibles downfield is largely related to the skill level of the players. When you do see an ineligible player downfield you want to consider where he is, what he's doing and how and why he may be there.

The first thing you want to be sure of, is that the pass is thrown and actually crosses the LOS. If a lineman has just wandered too far and is not affecting the play or actively blocking you may decide to simply mention something to him. If he is involving himself as a blocker, and he was down field BEFORE the pass was thrown, beyond the NZ, a penalty is likely in order.

Yes Illegal touching (formerly OPI) would be the second penalty he has commited. Illegal touching is a more severe penalty, adding Loss of down, to the 5 yd distance penalty for either foul, so it, alone, would be the infraction you report.

When you observe a player with an eligible # out flanked by another player with an eligible #, the inside player bears watching. As often as not, there's a good chance that the outside player lined up wrong, rendering the inside player INeligible, which the inside player may well not realize. (Make a mental note of the outside player's # as you may be asked for it).

If the inside player goes downfield for a pass, he's an ineligible downfield, and if he touches the ball it's Illegal touching. All the while he (and his coach) may have intended him to be eligible and only the action of his teammate took that status away from him, which neither player or coach may be totally unaware of.

Being prepared to inform the referee you have a foul against ineliible # XX, because he was covred by # YY can eliminate a lot of questioning.

If there is no forward pass, there's no foul and both offensive players are entitled to go downfield.

Brandon: Rules are designated with a dash as in 2-32-2. What ajmc quoted was from the Case Book. Case book plays contain periods.

Actually it's just a habit of mine, kdf5, that I use periods instead of dashes when referencing rules. When I reference a Case Book play, I usually state that it's a Case Book reference.

I figured if anyone was interested enough to check the reference, they wouldn't have a problem. If you had bothered to look, you'd know there isn't a 2.32.3 reference in the Case Book, and if you were familiar with the Rule book, you'd know the definitions, themselves, are really only spelled out in the Rule book.

Forgive me if I caused you any undue confusion, if you don't understand something I've posted, ask for clarification, I'll do my best to help you out. If you're going to try and put words in my mouth, be kind enough to reference the correct reference number, dots and dashes aside, the actual reference number is what really matters.

Since the enforcement for ineleigible downfield is a previous spot foul, there is no particular need to throw your flag to any particular spot.

But on the general subject of getting flags to a spot on the field....
I dont want my own newer guys wasting time by thinking about whether a particular foul requires a spot or not, so I try to encourage officials to always throw the flag toward the spot of the foul. Of course by that I mean toward the yard line of the foul first and foremost. Left or right across the field is not so important - having that too is a bonus. Of course it helps to sell the call when a flag is in the general area of the foul.
I've seen officials spend all their energy in throwing a flag 25 yds across the field and then have to go move it because it wasn't on the correct yardline. Common sense says aim for the correct yardline.

I didn't bother to look because I didn't care. I was simply letting him know the difference. He seems like a rookie and is asking some great questions on here and I simply distinguished one from the other. Your habit shouldn't get him confused.

It's really hard to imagine that anyone who is interested in the rules of football, or explaining them or understanding them would be confused because of dots and ashes?

When the accepted conventions among officials is to use dashes for rule references and dots for case plays then yes, your methodology is confusing.

I'm really at a loss, Jaybird, to figure out what your problem is. Adding one stupid statement after another isn't ever going to make what you offer in general, any less childish.

If you find no value in anything I offer, sorry about that, feel free to ignore me. If you have something of value to offer, which based on what you've offered thus far, is highly doubtful, enlighten me, but behaving like a little pre-teen girl who feels she's been somehow slighted, isn't going to impress anyone and really makes you look bad.

Do yourself a favor, because it really doesn't much matter to me, and get over whatever is bothering you.

:D:D:D

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. Al has a problem of 1) admitting his mistakes and 2) an obsession with getting in the last word and 3) hurling insults as a defense mechanism. I simply pointed out that rules use dashes and case book references use dots. Everyone but him does it that way yet we're the ones who are wrong and he's right. Par for the course. Go ahead, Al, have the last word.

I realize you're trying really hard to be clever, kdf5, but your your about as subtle as loud fart in church, and you're just not getting it done. Being right has nothing to do with being childish, and I'm afraid it's really obvious what your intent is, no matter how badly you try and camouflage is, and thus far you're a long way from clever.

Neither you, or jaybird, have yet been able to master the skill of being effectively sarcastic, and the unfortunate result of your efforts is pushing both of you more towards acting petty and sounding frustrated.

When you're under no illusion that you're perfect, acknowledging or admitting trivial mistakes is really no big deal. You just adjust, when it matters, and move on, it's really not that big a deal. How I wish mixing dots and dashes or using too many words were my biggest mistakes, or flaws.

For two guys who are so quick to point out the most trivial errors or misstatements of others, you are super sensitive about what amounts to insults, that you perceived are being "hurled" at you. Makes me wonder how you manage to survive on a sideline, that is if you've actually been on a sideline.

I learned long ago that, "getting in the last word" is usually greatly overrated and anyone can always have the last word, but doing so just doesn't mean a whole lot, especially when the subject doesn't amount to very much.

I suspect there might be a lot you two haven't been exposed to yet, to help you understand the difference between what might be important and what really doesn't matter, but as you mature your perception should expand, at least it usually does, and there's always hope that will be true for you.

Like most of your little barbs, these last few are taking this converstaion nowhere, about nothing. It's really up to you how long this conversation continues. You can keep trying to sound glib, which truly isn't working very well for you, or you could add something worthwhile, that pertains to the original question, or you could just conclude you have nothing of any value to offer. Trust me, you won't be the first to reach that conclusion.

Am I right or am I right?

That would seem to depend on what your objective was. If it was to solidify and support all your considerable and consistent hard work to establish yourself as an obstinant, niggling child locked into single-mindedness, I'd say you are progressing famously towards your objective.

OMG I don't even want to know what you have that is worse! (how's that for sarcasm?)


Now if you would ony use that knowledge.

You may begin at any time.:D

Al, what was wrong with simply saying "that's right, rules use dashes and case book plays use dots"? Why did you have to write three paragraphs full of snotty comments instead? Are you that small of a person?

Guys, can we try to stay on topic here and stick to helping Brandon understand the eligible/ineligible issue?

He has had the good sense to come here to seek help - lets not put him off.

Thank you With_Two_Flakes. If you guys wanna argue please PM each other.

Now in an attempt to get back on topic, Where is illegal touching enforced from? in the NF rule book it says the "basic spot". Would this be a loose ball foul and be enforced from the previous spot? or is it the succeeding spot since the play becomes a running play after the ball is caught and secured by the ineligible? Also if an ineligible catches the ball, is the play blown dead or is it still live until the ineligible is tackled or reaches the end zone? (I feel I know the answer to my last question I just want to be sure.)

Hopefully you will quickly learn who you can learn from and who you should ignore.

Now onto your questions.

Illegal touching is handled under all but one principle. Illegal touching by an ineligible will always be a loose ball play. If an ineligible illegally touches a pass behind the line of scrimmage, it is enforced from the spot of the foul. If ahead of the line, it is enforced from the previous spot.

Illegal touching does not cause the ball to become dead. NO live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

And may I offer a suggestion? If you have other questions other than what the original post was about, you will likely get more responses by starting a new thread.

You guys are right, my apologies.

Thanks for the tip. Ill keep that in mind when asking questions. I was pretty sure it WASN'T blown dead but just wanted to make sure. Thanks again.

Apology accepted :) No harm, No foul

Brandon,
Let me jump right in! So you don't get off on the wrong foot, there is no situation in NFHS football where a penalty causes the ball to become dead or "blown dead" as you stated.

Source: Football Fundamental IX. 1) No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

While this is not the case in other codes of football, it is most certainly the case in NFHS.

maybe this has already been mentioned....
 

becuase of the previous pissing match, I glazed over many of the posts...As a wing, if a player is covered up, I say the number of the covered up player, aloud to myself, to remind me to be aware of: 1. If the play begins as a pass, I locate that covered up player, and 2: when ball is passed over the neutral zone, will throw the flag if he is downfield.
While this forum is of great value to all officials, finding a mentor, talking his ear off while treating him to a meal, is of greater value still. Most experienced officials would love to take an eager, open official under their wing.
Good luck,
tro

But according to discussions here, play is to be whistled dead when it becomes clear a hideout play is in progress, although it's treated otherwise as if it were a dead ball foul.

Robert in the Bronx

Thanks for the encouragement, What exactly is a covered up player?

By "covered up", he means someone on the line with an eligible number who is supposed to be on the end of the line. But they are not on the end of the line because someone out wide, who should be off the line has messed up and is on the line and therefore "covering him up".

Example:- Formation should be,

..................82..71..68..55..62..77........89
..84

but #84 messes up and it actually is

..84.............82..71..68..55..62..77........89

so #82 is "covered up" because of #84's mistake.

Most commonly applied to the normally eligible TE where the SE or Flanker is on the line of scrimmage along side him

i.e. SE TGCGT TE FL


the flanker has "covered up" the TE in this formation, thus making him a lineman.
As long as he doesn't go downfield (expanded neutral zone) on a pass beyond the NZ or its a running play, he's legal. A power running team will line up like this all night with no problem.

To be legally downfield, the formation would need to be thus-

SE TGCGT TE
FL



now the TE is on the end of the line and eligible.

Covered up can also happen when a slot receiver lines up incorrectly on the LOS with the end.

SE FL TGCGT TE

A "covered up" player is one who begins a play as an eligible receiver (both by position and number) on the end of the line who is rendered ineligible, either deliberately or unintentionally, by the actions of another player, who takes a wider position on the same side of the line.

The "covered" player, although still eligible by number, would no longer be eligible by position as he is no longer on the end of the line.

ah ok that makes sense.

From this year's Points of Emphasis -

The old idea of "hitting until the whistle" is passé. It must be remembered by coaches and officials that the whistle is only confirmation that a play is over. The play kills itself.<style> Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><style>


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Waltjp:
I am not sure I understand what you are attempting to say? :confused:
While I agree with this years point of emphasis, it has nothing to do with "No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead"

ART. 6 . . . Pass eligibility rules apply only to a legal forward pass. The
following players are eligible pass receivers:
a. All A players eligible by position and number include those who, at the time
of the snap, are on the ends of their scrimmage line or legally behind the
line (possible total of six) and are numbered 1-49 or 80-99. (See 7-2-5a
EXCEPTION)
b. All A players become eligible when B touches a legal forward pass.
c. All B players are eligible.
d. A player who is eligible at the start of the down remains eligible throughout
the down.

Yeah, perhaps poorly worded, but it does. The question was whether to blow the whistle when you see a foul. The answer, of course, is no.

Not even in the case of the hideout play (simulated substitution to get the defense to ignore a receiver)?

Robert-
I see where you are going now!
No, you do not have rule support to shut down a "hideout play" or any play for that matter. That being said however you do have rule support to enforce the penalty as a previous spot foul.
Rule 9-6-4...It is illegal participation:
b. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer, or other attendant in a substitution or pretend substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.
PENALTY: 4b-f (live-ball, previous spot) - (S28) - 15 yards

Also see 2008 NFHS CASE BOOK, Page 76 - 9.6.4 SITUATION B

Wrong!!!
 

AJMC- (aka AlinupstateNY)
You'll excuse me if I take the opportunity to point out WHAT YOU WROTE is poorly worded and misleading, and therefore, by NFHS definition, renders itself to be false and incorrect!

Source 2008 NFHS Rule Book Page 82 Football Fundamentals VII. Passes
1.A player who is eligible at the start of a down remains eligible throughout the down.

It is just not possible for a player who "...begins a play as an eligible reciever..." to then become "...rendered ineligible..."

Congratulations, you are absolutely correct, I blew right by Football Fundamental VII and used a poorly worded, and possibly misleading phrase, to try and explain a basic concept. Good thing you were there to avoid a calamity.

I understand what you are saying but some of it could be a little misleading. The person being covered may not be there in error. As someone else noted, some teams line up this way intentionally for running plays. There is nothing wrong with that. Also, he may be covered up because he's supposed to be in the back field but lined up wrong (rather than the wide-out).

I would simplify the explanation as a player with an eligible number on the line of scrimmage who is not on the end.

Canadian Answer
 

CANADIAN ANSWER:

Eligible:

• 1-39 or 70-99 and the widest player on the line, or any player in the backfield, and isn't an ineligible receiver (see definition) or
• 40-69, has reported to the Referee, and is not in an ineligible position

Ineligible:

• 40-69, or
• other # and reported as ineligible