Opinions on this?
 

Please help settle a debate. Would anyone here throw a flag on #51 for the blocks in this video? Is this type of Blocking "unsportsmanlike"?

Specifically blocks at :52 and 1:14 where a player is on the ground? No flags were thrown, but is it illegal to block a player that is on the ground?

YouTube - 8 year old's Football Highlights Part 1

Any input appreciated. (I'm not an official).

It looks like you are new, welcome to the forum. I do not know if you are an official, but a block cannot be unsportsmanlike. Unsportsmanlike acts are basically non-contact fouls. These all involve contact.

The first block I saw nothing wrong. The kid was blocking and was making sure the player was out of the play.

The second block (if I have the right block) at best might have been a BIB (Block in the back) but it was hard to tell where the contact took place in the pile.

This is football right? ;)

Peace

There were several blocks that might have drawn a flag. There's no need to hit a defender when he's on the ground, especially in the back. Nor is there a need to block a defender at the 10 yard line when the ball carrier is already in the end zone.

With 8-year olds it's usually a 'talk-to' first but at some point the talking has to stop.

I don't see a clip at :52 or 1:09. Nothing to flag.

Those blocks are "talk to" blocks. The kid looks like a budding head case but is probably a reflection on his coach.

One thing I did notice is the extreme pinching of the wing officials on some of these plays. I know it's youth football, but they were almost getting in the way. There were some sloppy mechanics as well. Just because it's youth football doesn't mean you should take it any less seriously than a high school varsity game. In fact, it's the perfect environment to really work on your mechanics. You just never know who is watching you!

Scott

flag or not
 

In the first block it was not a needed block but B was trying to get back in the play talk to A on that one. On the second play it is a bolck in the back.

The first block looked marginally ok, he blocked the player to the ground, broke contact then blocked him again when you might think the player is defenseless. Looked like the R was walking over to talk to the player which is the appropriate action.

The secondblock was unnecessary, player on the ground, therefore, out of the play, when the player blocked him from behind.

What both blocks had in common was they were away from the point of attack and had no material affect on the play.

Neither block was technically unsportsmanlike as there was contact as Rut said in an earlier post; however, the contact was unnecessary and the players needed to be warned. More than likely the player may have been coached such as "hit somebody" we hear all too often.

Most officials would not flag this conduct because it had no affect on the play but the play might get added attention from the officials and subsequent marginal actions could cost him a ride on the bench.

Could be Unnecessary Roughness at 1:16 and Horsecollars at 3:10 and 6:15.

Other than that, he looks like a very good player.

Who the heck makes a couple of "hi-lite" films of an 8 year old to be posted on UTube? I mean really.

Someone who plans on a big future for their kid, or to push their kid's perceived ability over others'.

I hope you do not really think that these officials are necessarily varsity officials. This is the place many people start. Officials who are often working these games are not varsity officials in the first place.

Peace

I didn't assume that they were varsity officials. I have just never seen an official pinch in that tight before. I guess it caught my attention more than the 8 year old bulldozer. For some reason, it didn't occur to me that they could be first year officials and I apologize for that. If they were vets and just lazy, then that is a different story.

Scott

In many areas the same officials who work at the varsity level also work youth league games, and thinking that positioning, especially on the wings, should be the same for 8 year olds as it is for varsity games is ridiculous. We need to adjust and adapt to the game we're working, rather than be rigid in complying with a recommended mechanic that is not practical for the level we're dealing with.

The wider positioning recommended for varsity level contests is a direct response and reaction to the skill level of the players and the variety of formations and strategies being employed. Wing officials camping out on their respective sidelines, at most youth level games, contribute precious little to the game thats usually being played a lot closer to where the ball is being snapped. When play, at these levels, does turn outside it's much easier to maintain an appropriate separation because of the skill level of the participants.

There's simply no need to be as wide at younger level youth league contests, because the risk of being out flanked is so much lower and the need for helping control the players reactions is so much greater.

The caution is always not to get too close, but the play should be within sight.

The same people who post videos of their children doing anything. It's mostly a convenient host for geographically distant friends & family. I'm sure they're not seeking to be scouted! I can't watch the videos from here, but if it they look like those of a high school player seeking to be scouted, that's just part of the gag that says, "See, we can do this just like they do for grown-ups."-- which gag is repeated in tons of non-sports videos on YouTube.

Robert in the Bronx

I’m drafting #51. He doesn’t fire off the ball very well, but he is in a bad mood when he gets there.

:d

Different assoc's do things differently. Some have varsity officials required to work the little guys, some don't. Some assoc's have the officials pinch in that far pre-snap, some have you react to what happens after the snap before pinching, some want you to wait until after the play is dead before pinching.

I guess I am a little confused what pinching has to do with being lazy? It might not be the perfect mechanic, but I do not understand the lazy part of your post.

Peace

Not sure about this league...
 

but here after one has worked Wed-Thurs-Fri, we can do a triple-header youth series on Saturday. Your butt can be dragging by game 3 and you'll pinch, shuffle, lope, whatever, just to stay out there to finish.

Not saying its right but just sayin.....

And there probably are more inexperienced officials in these clips.

It's more of if they are just too lazy (or tired) to walk back toward the sidelines and come back in to spot the ball after the play. I guess I still fail to understand the benefit of pinching in that close at the start of the play. I work youth football as well as varsity and can see the play just fine without pinching. I just think that there is a greater benefit of moving in forward from the sideline during the play than to back pedal quickly or *gasp* turn around. However, I will concede the point that some associations teach it that way and that maybe these officials are doing things correctly as taught to them. I also concede that these may be rookie officials just learning their way.

Scott

For at least 40 years, the recommended NFHS positioning for wing officials was, "a minimum of 9 yards outside the widest receiver" and faily recently changed to the current, "straddle the LOS on the sideline". Of course either of these recommended mechanics were intended for VARSITY level HS contests.

The notion that the practicality, or necessity, of these recommendations would apply equally to 8 yr. olds is perposterous. The underlying objective is to simply avoid getting TOO close to the formation to be able to respond to it. If there is a concern about getting outflanked in an 8 year old game, perhaps the wing is not the right position for you.

There are a number of distinct advantages of "pinching in" closer to the formations at the youth levels, among which are; putting a cushion between yourself and overly inquisitive sidelines who believe part of our job is to conduct a running clinic and constanly debate the perfection of every formation and play. It's easier to ignore someone from a distance.

Younger players (not a surprise to parents of younger males) don't always listen or focus as well as their older brothers. There often seems to be a bit more "preventive officiating"needed at lower age games, and helpful suggestions are often heard better by players, and subject to less sideline eavesdropping, from just a few steps further in from the sideline. Converging in on the dead ball situations, and assuring the actions stops when it should can be more of a safety factor with younger players who may not understand, or react to whistles, or commands, as promptly as their older counterparts.

The younger the players, usually, the lower the skill and comprehension levels which can produce more confusion and players being in the wrong place at the wrong time, oblivious to their surroundings. Often, not always, the closer adult supoervision is to the actual action, the more effectiver the supervision.

In reality, there is precious little practical value to positioning wing officials at the same distance from the play as is appropriate for Varsity contests where the recommended positioning has been establised in consideration of the skill level, of Varsity level players, and the complexity and sophistication of Varsity level strategies.

Of course when confronted with any exceptional players or teams, we simply adjust and respond to the game we are working. "Pinching in", at youth level games, is far less an indicator of either inexperience or laziness as it is simply to appropriate adjustment to the job site you're assigned to

Ok...check out 5:42 and 7:08 of this video. What's the benefit of being this close??? I can understand some pinching at this level, the majority in this video was ok, but these two are the ones that stood out to me.

Why would anyone want to watch 7:08 minutes of some parents home movies about his 8 yr old's football game? What would you hope to learn from seeing some out of context footage?

There are two issues related to being too close, i.e. pinching in too far: (1) yes, you might get in the way and find yourself more focused on getting out of the way than on watching the play in progress, and (2) probably more importantly, closing down your peripheral vision so much that you don't get a good look at the play. We have a fundamental premise that you don't call something unless you see the whole play. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the less peripheral vision you're able to use, the less likely you are to see action from beginning to end.

While I agree that there might be no reason for a wing official to necessarily be off the field in a little kids' game, I would heartily suggest that the wing stay as wide as he can. It will help in that game, and it will help a newer official get used to seeing the game from that perspective so that we he does make the jump to HS and possibly college ball, he'll know what it's like to watch a game with that amount of peripheral vision at his disposal.

My point was not how far you should pinch or should you pinch at all. I am just saying that it is very possible and likely that these officials either worked no more than this level, or were not very advanced in their career. That means that either way it goes, they probably do not know much about the mechanics or the philosophies. Just looking at the video that is very obvious to me. I used to work a lot of Pop Warner or Bill George ball and I would work with guys that acted like they knew a lot, but would not know basic stuff.

Peace

my 2 cents
 

In answer to your specific question. The first block at 0:52 by #51 is legal. The blocked player ,once down, attempted to get back up, and as far as #51 knew, would influence the play. As an official, seeing this from the flank (not pinched in so much) and knowing what has occurred, I would simply watch #51 to see how he continues to block. Maybe talk to him. This is after all 8yr old football, our first job, not being a coach, but as an official/adult is to encourage fair play and sportsmanship. If he continues to block in this manner which could be construed as not necessary, talk to his coach, then the player, lastly flag him.
The second block is indeed a flag, not real thought there, flag it. If the player or coach needs an explanation, talk to them.
As for the critique on the officials, well... that was not was billgates51 asked, so why comment on this? But since it was brought up in further discussion, I'll comment too:-) since we do not know these officials, their experience level, their local mechanics etc, none of us can really comment on them specifically. Rather I think the comment directed to them is generally about the mechanics. Did they pinch in too tight, yeah probably? Does it seem kind of "lazy"…. matter of opinion, yeah maybe. But I know after my 6th game of Saturday youth football, I am ready to go home, while I try to give each game my all, I’m kind of tired too.

By the way, this is a very valuable resource for officiating questions. I have seen very good arguments pro and con on many good questions. While I myself have some years officiating under my belt, I value reading others inputs, views, interpretations. I am glad I found this forum.
By the way my favorite Saturday morning answer to pain in the butt coach is "Yeah coach I saw it, you got nothing"

Happy conditioning folks! Have a great 09-10 season.

Wow, I guess officiating is actually a lot different in some parts of the country. In some parts, the same officials who work local College, HS (at all levels) and Semi-Pro are actually the same officials who work youth leagues.

You might be suprised that some of these officials know a great deal about, have been exposed to all the learning aids about mechanics and philosophies on a consistent basis for decades and take their craft seriously. They actually enjoy mixing with newer officials and passing on some of the practical lessons they've learned over extended careers.

Football is a game of extreme physical interaction and contact played by little children all the way up to large grown men, which has a lot to do with their being 3 separate, major rules codes to deal with some of the obvious differences in the physical makeup of the participants.

Consistency in mechanics is certainly an important consideration, but no more important than recognizing the circumstances of the game you are actually working and applying the intent of those mechanics to the level of the contest at hand. Point of fact, there is very little comparable about football played by 8yr olds, even though they're dressed in pads, and HS football, even at sub-varsity levels. (or your HS program is in deep trouble).
All football fields are the same size, but the players aren't, which can require some adjustment to gain a similar, recommended perspective.

I did not say that this applied to everyone. But I highly doubt someone that is working college is available to work much youth ball for the simple reason you cannot be in two places at the same time. That being said, it was rather clear these were not big time high school officials, let alone worked college.

Peace

I guess it all depends on where you are. The age old suggestion to "do like a Roman" only applied when you might happen to be in Rome. Further East, College games are usually played on Saturday afternoons. Youth Football games are primarily played throughout Sunday afternoons and evenings, although some are played Saturday evenings at 5:00 & 7:00, or 6:00 & 8:00pm and occassionally on weeknights at 6;00pm.

Again, back East, many of the same officials belong to both ECAC and the local HS Assn., that services HS and Youth leagues and services semi-pro leagues and don't have college, HS or semi-pro assignments that conflict with youth leagues every week. Like most areas, it boils down to availability and interest and many enjoy an infinite mix of available choices.

Amazing how often people assume "one size fits all" when in reality that hardly ever applies.

That sounds great. But you have completely missed the point. It is really not whether officials can or cannot work games at all levels. It is clear by the mechanics, the look of the officials and they way they moved they obviously are not working all levels as was assumed by a previous point. I was stating that that these officials were not automatically high school or college officials as assumed by a previous poster, which is why I made the comments in the first place.

I did not ask you what they did out East. And what someone does in a particular area is also not relevant to my comments. I was making it clear that these officials were likely not working all levels. I work in many basketball camps as a clinician and help train younger/newer officials in basketball. We joke all the time that we can tell what someone's experience is by just watching them run up and down the court just a few times. I think what I saw was a similar reaction that I got. Because college officials would not be doing some of these things whether they were working youth ball or not in my opinion.

Peace

Around here, it can be harder to break into peewee than it is to work HS, even varsity in some cases. I think I worked my first HS varsity game the Friday night before my first (and only) peewee Sat. games. I had an opportunity to fill in the year before (my first) but couldn't. Not that I tried real hard to get in, but for some guys it takes asking several PW assignors.

Relevance is important, as is context, and the context of this discussion seemed pointed towards some observations that "pinching in" from the sidelines was automatically improper mechanics.

The counter suggestion was simply that considering the significant physical and skill differences between 8 year old children playing football, and other more advanced levels of the game, often calls for practical adjustment to standard mechanics to better deal with the actual circumstances of the game at hand. Such adjustments may well be appropriate, rather than automatically considered improper.

There's little value in critiquing any individual official's performance, at the 8 yr old level from a compiled parental highlite video, unless you might be a mentor for that particular official and were discussing it privately and constructively with the official. There is even less value in assessing perfomance based on mechanics, that may be unique at this level, as compared to how they would be required at more advanced levels.

Football at the 8 year old level is a DIFFERENT game.

Jeez-o guys...breathe for a second.

I understand and know that youth football is a different level than high school. I do know that some mechanics are adjusted to the level. I get it. I also know that some youth officials do not work high school and are just starting out. I'm also going to take back any comments on laziness, since it's probably not the case.

So...let me rephrase my question. When is it appropriate to pinch to an extreme (like at 5:42 and 7:08 of the video)? What good does it do to be that close to the action? Does anybody teach it like that for 8 year old football?

I appreciate the feedback given by you guys...it's priceless knowledge (No sarcasm here).

Scott

"pinching in" TOO far is normally not a good idea, at any level, unless there might have been something significant he was responding to, that can't be seen on the video.

It does not do much good at all. But honestly I really do not think that is the point. It is a youth football game, with people that are not required in many jurisdictions to do much of anything. You are going to see all kinds of things of the officials (like wearing a jacket on the field) that you would not see other places. Take it for what it is a training ground for people to get some experience. That means you will see all kinds of wrong things.

Peace

Scott,
I think if you read Bob M's post above you'll get your answers to the first two questions. There are a few specific plays where pre-pinching may be ok, but not to that extent. As for the last question....either the guys in the vid are doing it the way they were taught and/or required to do it or they came up with that on their own. No way for us to know. I do know around my area, I'd be strongly advising them to get back. I'd also have a lot of other recommendations for them, but we'll stick to the pinch question here.

Thanks guys...I appreciate the answers! :)

Thanks to all for the responses. My goal in posing the questions was to get an unbiased point of view on whether my Son's blocking was "unsportsmanlike." I received a comment that my Son (#51) needed to receive better coaching in sportsmanship because he blocked players that were already on the ground. While no flags were thrown on any of the plays, I agree that the officials involved are probably not ready for the NFL just yet.

My Son has been coached to be aggressive, and play to the whistle. I have told him (perhaps wrongly) it is legal and advisable to continue to block players that have been knocked to the ground to prevent them from getting back into the play. While the highlights were put together to make him look “beastly”, he is a good kid and is not looking to injure anyone. Interestingly, I have received several comments from other coaches who really liked this type of aggressive play, and asked how it was developed. His coaches are very pleased with his level of play and aggressiveness.

That said, I understand the need to cut out unnecessary stuff that could lead to flags or escalate. i.e. while it's hard to see because of the angle, 31 actually kicks 51 in the “berries” after being knocked down at :56. While both were seen by the white hat, nothing was said about the hit or kick.

As someone surmised, I created the highlight videos on youtube so geographically dispersed friends and relatives could see them, not for any other reason. That said, my 529 has really taken a beating so if anyone knows of any college coaches that would be interested in extending a scholarship offer to a 9 year old who is willing to work hard.... ;-)

Once again thanks for the comments. You have a cool forum here.

You may hear this from others but this comment makes most officials cringe. I understand the concept that you are encouraging the players to play to the end of the play. But if you teach a player to play specifically to the whistle, you are going to get him in trouble.

I forget the exact number but there are like 40 ways for a play to end and a whistle is only one of them and it's not good (inadvertent whistle). For example, the play is over as soon as the pass is incomplete or the runner's knee touches the ground, not when the subsequent whistle blows. As I work up to higher levels I'm leaning that whistles are used less and less. If a player only stops when he hears a whistle, he is likely to eventually get penalized for a personal foul for hitting after the play is over.

I admire your pride for your son and wanting him to improve! I wish him the best of luck as he advances in his career!