Kasay: Can a Kicker Re-set?

[Berkut]

Sure - as long as he does not false start, any player can re-set.

[OverAndBack]

If it "simulated action at the snap," could you flag it?

(Standard disclaimers about NFL rules vs. our rules, etc. etc. etc.)

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Sure - as long as he does not false start, any player can re-set.

Any back or end can shift.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

Any back or end can shift.

Any A player can shift, as long as they come to a complete stop for 1 second prior to the snap, and they have not placed their hands on or near the ground yet. I think for NCAA it is below the knees though. Actually, that isn't entirely accurate, as the rules say anyone can shift, but that a player with his hand at or near the ground will false start if they bring them up.

All 11 of them can go out, line up in a formation, then all 11 can shift to a new formation.

More commonly, the interior lineman can certainly shift from an "up" position to a down position, for example.

[bisonlj]

This brings up something I never thought of before. I didn't see the play but based on the description, there is no foul here. If he did that and stopped but another player started in motion within a second of him stopping, you would have an illegal motion penalty (not all players were set for 1 second before the player went in motion).

This makes me wonder though...if the kicker starts forward before the snap and is still moving forward at the snap, you technically have an illegal motion. I can't imagine anyone would ever flag that because he is not gaining any kind of an advantage (unless they run a fake and he's getting a head start on going downfield).

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This makes me wonder though...if the kicker starts forward before the snap and is still moving forward at the snap, you technically have an illegal motion. I can't imagine anyone would ever flag that because he is not gaining any kind of an advantage (unless they run a fake and he's getting a head start on going downfield).

It's an advantage for the kicker by being able to get the kick off sooner and/or with more force, so sure it should be flagged.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's an advantage for the kicker by being able to get the kick off sooner and/or with more force, so sure it should be flagged.

No. This commonly happens when the kicker expects the ball to be snapped and the snapper doesn't snap the ball right away... So the kicker "stutter steps" forward (like Kasay did) in anticipation of the late snap. It's actually a DISadvantage


But yes, I've seen this happen a couple times in my lifetime where the kicker "stutters" before he starts. I always wondered if this was illegal/forward motion or a false start... but it was never called.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bossman72

No. This commonly happens when the kicker expects the ball to be snapped and the snapper doesn't snap the ball right away... So the kicker "stutter steps" forward (like Kasay did) in anticipation of the late snap. It's actually a DISadvantage

It's a disadvantage to do it by accident. It would be an advantage to start forward early on purpose if they timed it right. I'm not saying it would be easy, or they would do so routinely in Canadian football, where I haven't seen it, but I still think it's enough of a potential advantage that it should be flagged.

But yes, I've seen this happen a couple times in my lifetime where the kicker "stutters" before he starts. I always wondered if this was illegal/forward motion or a false start... but it was never called.

I don't know why officials wouldn't flag a kicker's illegal motion as easily as other cases of a back's unintentionally beating the count. However, if the "stutter" was a step forward, then a step backward, it's not illegal motion because the back was not moving forward when the snap began. It could be seen as simulating the start of play, and several months ago here there was a thread on whether to call a false start when a back accidentally starts early.

Robert

[PackersFTW]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This brings up something I never thought of before. I didn't see the play but based on the description, there is no foul here. If he did that and stopped but another player started in motion within a second of him stopping, you would have an illegal motion penalty (not all players were set for 1 second before the player went in motion).

This makes me wonder though...if the kicker starts forward before the snap and is still moving forward at the snap, you technically have an illegal motion. I can't imagine anyone would ever flag that because he is not gaining any kind of an advantage (unless they run a fake and he's getting a head start on going downfield).

then how come i have seen 2 people in motion before? i saw it last week, and thought it was illegal, but apparently not. i also thought all players had to be set for 1 second before the snap, but apparently the motion guy is allowed to be moving the second before the snap (he could start 15 yards back and just sprint and the qb could time it so he snaps it right before he hits the LOS).

[aschramm]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

then how come i have seen 2 people in motion before? i saw it last week, and thought it was illegal, but apparently not. i also thought all players had to be set for 1 second before the snap, but apparently the motion guy is allowed to be moving the second before the snap (he could start 15 yards back and just sprint and the qb could time it so he snaps it right before he hits the LOS).

In Arena League Football, yes you are correct. But I believe in the NFL that you can have motion parallel to the line of scrimmage at the snap, you just can't be going forward.

Also, NFHS 7-2-7
Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent's goal line. Except for the player "under the snapper," as outlined in Article 3, the player in motion shall be atleast 5 yards behind his line of scrimmage at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line and did not establish as a back by stopping for atleast one full second while no part of his body is breaking the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on the line of scrimmage.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

then how come i have seen 2 people in motion before?

You haven't.

You may have seen two or more guys shift before. But you haven't seen two guys in motion at the snap without a penalty unless somebody really messed up.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If he did that and stopped but another player started in motion within a second of him stopping, you would have an illegal motion penalty (not all players were set for 1 second before the player went in motion).

Not sure I agree with you at least for NCAA Rules. Provided that Team A were set for 1 second before motion starts, then after one guys motion stops and another guys motion starts, provided their motions don't "overlap" there is no requirement for all of Team A to stop for "another" full second. There is an Approved Ruling in the NCAA Rule Book on the matter.

AR 7-1-4-IV
After the Team A players have stopped for one second, end A88 runs wide and stops, and before one second elapses, back A36 starts moving backward. RULING: Legal.

I can't find anything in the NFHS book that makes me think the Fed is any different to NCAA, but I'm no High School Rules expert, so happy to defer to the other side of the Pond on that one......

[PackersFTW]

Originally Posted by bossman72

No. This commonly happens when the kicker expects the ball to be snapped and the snapper doesn't snap the ball right away... So the kicker "stutter steps" forward (like Kasay did) in anticipation of the late snap. It's actually a DISadvantage


But yes, I've seen this happen a couple times in my lifetime where the kicker "stutters" before he starts. I always wondered if this was illegal/forward motion or a false start... but it was never called.

i was gonna say this. when kasay did this, i thought for sure he was going to miss.

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

You haven't.

You may have seen two or more guys shift before. But you haven't seen two guys in motion at the snap without a penalty unless somebody really messed up.

correct. i saw them both move a few seconds before the snap, but one of them set before the snap.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

correct. i saw them both move a few seconds before the snap, but one of them set before the snap.

They both should have reset and then one of them (or another back/end) could have gone in motion after a second--although in the NFL they seem to take liberty with the "one second." I'm not sure exactly how it is written in NFL rules, but it seems guys are often sent for less than a second before a snap, and it is deemed legal.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by PackersFTW

correct. i saw them both move a few seconds before the snap, but one of them set before the snap.

Then that's a shift, not motion.