Is Ed Hoculi still the best?
 

I think so, he made a few mistakes this year but if I was in a big game he is my referee!

I still think he is the beat.... then a very close 2nd is Mike Carey

The NFL is in a very good point right now - there are lots of quality Referees. Steratore is good. Riveron is good. Hochuli and Carey as mentioned. Carollo is good. I like Winter myself. Leavy and Morelli do a fine job. There's no Tom White type anymore.

Corollo is up there with the others mentioned. I think some situations lend themselves to making officials look bad, i.e., no-win situations. I think the NFL has a lot of very good officials.

If Hoculi was ever the "best" it was not for a very long time. Not to say that Hoculi is a bad official, but there are a lot of very good Referees if you ask me. And if you look at the ratings, I do not think Hoculi is consistently the top guy at all. I know he has not received a lot of playoff assignments recently compared to other Referees.

Peace

I agree that right now the NFL might be at one of the high points ever at the referee position. I see a huge crop of great referees, with Hochuli and Carey leading the way. Riveron and Boger are a couple of really good "newer" guys!

What makes Hoch great is his overall contribution to the Referee spot at the NFL level. When you look back in history, 85 will be atop or near the top of the elite NFL officials. If it was such that Ed was the top every year, and everyone was playing for silver, then it'd be rather boring. Ed has received many playoff assignments, and is known to contribute to the league outside the normal expectations.

That's why he is the best.

I think Boger's mic needs work. I am partial to Steratore and Parry. IIRC, they were brought into the league to be CCs. Hoch and Carey are leading the way, though. Riveron has had a smooth transition too.

It looks like Riveron goofed on the DAL fumble though.

All the white hats I've met and got to observe up close do a good job.

Actually, when you compare Hochuli to other referees over the last five years, he does quite well. Only Mike Carey has more playoff assignments since 2003, and only one more:

M Carey......6 (2 WC, 3 DIV, 1 SB)
E Hochuli....5 (2 WC, 1 DIV, 1 CC, 1 SB)
T McAulay....5 (1 DIV, 3 CC, 1 SB)
W Anderson...5 (4 WC, 1 CC)
W Coleman....5 (3 WC, 1 DIV, 1 CC)
J Triplette..4 (2 WC, 1 DIV, 1 CC)
B Carollo....4 (2 DIV, 2 CC)
P Morelli....4 (1 WC, 3 DIV)
B Leavy......4 (1 WC, 2 DIV, 1 SB)
G Austin.....3 (3 DIV)
B Kukar......2 (1 WC, 1 CC)
T Corrente...2 (1 DIV, 1 SB)
J Boger......1 (1 DIV)
J Grier......1 (1 WC)
L Nemmers....1 (1 WC)
R Winter.....1 (1 DIV)
S Green......1 (1 WC)
B Vinovich...1 (1 WC)

Where would you find the ratings?

I rest my case.

Remember we are talking about opinions here. And just because you think he is the best, does not make it so.

I personally do not have a dog in this fight, but I think there are a lot of good referees. And playoff assignments are very deceiving all by themselves because you have to be at a position for a certain amount of time before you can even work a single playoff game. Ed has been around longer than most. Someone could make a case that there are several officials that were better but were not eligible for playoffs. And remember Ed is very high profile, so we remember his games more than others.

Peace

They're not made public.

You can infer them in a general sense by who gets which playoff assignments. But you'll never see them posted anywhere.

This is absolutely true. The margin between the #1 guy and the #6 guy is probably not that large. And personal preference (as to style and deportment and whatnot) does enter into it.

What's important to them is what the ratings show and what Mike Pereira wants.

Why didn't you say that above?

I think the only guys on the current list of NFL white hats who are not on that list (have not received a playoff assignment in the last five years) are:

Parry, Riveron, Steratore and Cheffers.

That's it.

How many of those guys are better? Demonstrably better? Riveron and Cheffers just became referees, correct? Still too early to tell if they're better, though I think Riveron is highly-regarded. Steratore is in his third year as a referee. Parry's in his second year as a referee.

I'm not sure there are "several" officials better who are being kept out by virtue of not having enough time (Riveron and Cheffers couldn't have been in the discussion before this year anyway). So we're down to Steratore and Parry. Are they better than Hochuli? I don't know.

THAT is absolutely true. Well, you seem to NOT remember his games as well as others. :D

(kidding, kidding, relax)

Look, Hochuli is a quality official, obviously. His body of work is an impressive one, no question. At some point, everybody's skills decline. Was the Denver thing evidence of that or just a brain fart? Only the NFL office knows for sure who's on top by their quantifiable methods. We may all have our preferences and people we admire for one reason or another.

But "the best" is a tough thing to determine. I always liked Jim Tunney, I thought he was great. But I don't know how much greater he was than Ben Dreith or Tommy Bell or Red Cashion or Jerry Markbreit. They were all pretty damn good.

There is evidence that the NFL disagrees with you.

Ed is known to have on his crew many officials who go on to be WHs/CCs. In fact, Ed trained Mike Carey! Also trained Morelli, Vinovich, Riveron. Over 10 years, why does the NFL choose Hochuli to have FOUR future CC learn from? He's a hint: it isn't coincidence! In addition, every year a Hochuli crew member makes the Super Bowl. Why is that? Here's another hint: LEADERSHIP.

Again, Ed is among the best NFL officials of all time. Furthermore, he is among the top Referees of all time. Just accept it.

Disagrees with me? Disagrees with me about what? :rolleyes:

I think you have a little too much man love for Hochuli.

BTW, the NFL does not get the Super Bowl as crews. They go there as individuals. And there has been turn over since Hocuhli was last in the Super Bowl. It is not like he or others are only beating out the same officials, year in and year out.

I am sorry, but this is not a personal issue for me. I personally think Hochuli is a good official and a good guy, but that does not make him still the best when there are many other Referees that are doing a good job. And just because he once trained Carey, does not mean Carey is not better than him. We are not talking about a bunch of stiffs working in the NFL and the top guy is not that much better than the bottom guy. If they were, they would get rid of them.

Honestly I do not know who is the best and really do not care when it is all said and done. This sound more like a fan boy discussion than something based on reality anyway. But to say it is hands down Hochuli is kind of over the top if you ask me. Should we discuss if Tony Romo is better than Carson Palmer too. :D

Peace

:cool: I tried. ;)

REPLY: At one time, the Super Bowl required that an official have five years in the league before being considered, and required that a referee have five years at that position before being considered. Don't know if that's still true.

It is still true at all positions from what I understand.

Peace

I think it may be 3 years now, but 3 or 5 it eliminates some who may be rated in the top 5, which lessons the number who could get a SB.

Since 1977 and 1078, and Jim Tunney, there has only been one official work the same position, that being Tom Sifferman who worked 3 in a row in 03, 04, and 05. List of Super Bowl officials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those same years saw Brent Buchko work 3 straight Grey Cups.

I think it was three years ago now that the NFL reversed itself on SB crews and sent entire crews rather than all star crews. You may recall the Giants v San Francisco game where there was a field goal that was missed and a penalty and they basically ignored a penalty. I may be wrong on the particulars from that one. I think the number one rated crew during the year still goes. But I could be wrong.

I'm positive they advance in the playoffs by position. I know two officials that worked playoff games last year and they did not work with their regular crews.

They get into the playoffs as a crew but all crew members are not eligible. You must work a position for around 5 years and not everyone on a crew has that kind of experience. So they get in as a crew, but they can be put together after that based on eligibility. The Super Bowl Crew is not always the entire crew but made up of All-Stars. You could work the Wild Card round and not work the Divisional Round and then work the Conference Championship or the Super Bowl. So it is not a pure elimination round. The intent is to assign crews, but they do not throw away all their other individual requirements.

Peace

Could it be that all officials are rated individually and assigned to the playoffs based on that ranking and if multiple guys on the same crew make it, they get assigned together? I do know the top officials at each position (and meet eligibility requirements) are assigned to the Super Bowl regardless of what position they work. My understanding is the same process is done for each round. I can't imagine that someone who is other eligible but scored on the lower end for his position would get a playoff assignment just because his crew got the assignment.

Not according to an official that is an NFL Official. Actually there are three in my area and according to them recently, they are judged by crews and then individuals. One of these officials work the Super Bowl recently and he did not work with his "normal" crew. As I said, the NFL is not going to punish everyone on the crew because their Field Judge was not eligible to work the post season. And in some cases there are multiple people on crews not eligible. Now if this is wrong it had to change recently. But if I use last year's example, then they assign by crews until the Super Bowl.

Peace

Did they work with a crew that had ~ 5 or 6 of their usual crewmates. This would be evidence that your friends filled in for a position where the crew that made it to that game has a newbie in that position.

I don't believe so. The one worked the Super Bowl and I know that was individual. The other worked a wild card game and I know he didn't work with his crew and based on his comments, I don't think he was filling in on someone else's crew that had 5 or 6 of their normal guys. It wasn't a focus of our discussion though so you could be correct.

I honestly don't understand the lovefest for Mike Carey. I think his mechanics are awful -- some of the worst in the league. I would love to know why guys think he is such a good R.

I may be misunderstanding your statement, but I doubt that the Giants and 49ers played against each other in the Super Bowl.

Awful mechanics? really?:confused:

Bad mechanics? Are you serious?

You are going to have to explain this one.

Peace

I sorta agree.

Regarding Mike Carey's mechanics, I think he is too robotic. Yes, his mechanics are crisp, clear and consistent. I would take his mechanics over say, Tom White's mechanics. But I don't see any grace, or flow, with his mechanics. I prefer the mechanics of Hochuli (surprise), Steratore. IIRC, Vinovich has nicer mechanics as well. I would take Carey's mechanics over Corrente, for example. The rest, I am indifferent to, although I think Winter should have been promoted.

I'm thinking there's at least one guy in New York who disagrees.

Are we talking about the same guy -- the one who worked the SB last year? If so, there isn't any explanation necessary -- if you've actually watched him. We can start with the way he slings his arm from one side to another when he's pointing out the team who the foul was against. I can't think of others off the top of my head right now, but I'll look for him next weekend (he worked tonight, I saw, but didn't watch more than 30 seconds of the game) and give others.

I don't like guys that draw attention to themselves through weird stuff that isn't necessary. If the guy in New York likes him, fine. He doesn't have to get my approval, but I stand by my statements. Incidentally, I wouldn't discount some political aspects to certain guys getting good assignments. It happens at every other level (I'll be honest: some people in my chapter think I've benefited from this, so I'm not speaking from bitterness), so you can't tell me it doesn't exist in pro sports.

That is a stylistic issue and something that everyone would not agree with. I know I do not worry about that kind of thing. That is the way he signals, so what? Then again I do not judge officials only based on something stylistic as to how they do something mechanically. The NFL must not have a problem with it, he did after all work the Super Bowl last year.

Well if that is your judgment, then the very person that we are talking about in the topic of this thread could be accused of the very same thing. And if you do not want people to draw attention to themselves, then you really should not be looking at any official at any level in any major sport that is constantly on TV. Officials at that level do not have to do anything to bring attention to themselves, they are already bringing attention to themselves by the fact they are on the game. Even at the lower levels, if you are on TV someone notices your little idiocracies and have opinions about them. I should know, I was on TV as a Referee in October.

And the issue of politics is lame. This has nothing to do with this conversation and the fact that you raised it really lessens your point of view on this. Not every Referee at any level has the same mannerisms or signals. I know as a basketball official where I have to report fouls, you can hardly find officials that do their reporting exactly the same. But you have not said anything that shows Carey does anything wrong or incorrect. You just have a personal dislike to his mannerisms. But to say that he has bad mechanics is laughable. You have to give more than mannerisms as evidence of bad mechanics.

Peace

Carey's movements are very precise, almost military.

That's fine. There's room for individualism as long as the signals are clear, which is why they exist in the first place.

I used to laugh at Dutch Rennert, the old major league umpire, who used to be really demonstrative in his strike calls, leaning way way way to one side and pointing to signal a strike.

That was his style. I wouldn't have been comfortable doing it, but that's just me. It worked for him.

Carey's style works for him. To say his mechanics are different from most, sure, you can say that. But they're not sloppy. And they're not "bad" mechanics by any means. I don't know the guy, but I am just going to guess that he's not doing it the way he does it to draw attention to himself. You can't get too far in this avocation being a showboat.

I second that!

I miss Bernie Kukar and his "Personal fahls" (like how he couldn't say foul correctly)