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-   -   NFHS Ball Mechanics (https://forum.officiating.com/football/50117-nfhs-ball-mechanics.html)

waltjp Wed Dec 03, 2008 09:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodScout (Post 554858)
With the rise of no-huddle offenses, this has become a big issue in the past few years. Our association's crews always try and work with each team to allow them to run balls in when they feel they need to. (We of course don't let them just run a ball in on fourth downs for obvious reasons). Likewise, finding good, quick ballboys who pay attention is always a challenge. Ironically, it's usually the coaches who push us in the pregame to hurry the RFP for their no-huddle who have the slowest ballboys.

One pet peeve this U has for R's and other crew members: Don't relay out the ball so quickly on a change of possession. I like to place the ball on the spot at the end of play, and then replace it with the incoming offense's ball before lifting and relaying out the old one. Why? Because if I have a ballboy who decided to go get a Coke or hit on a female trainer on the sideline rather than do his job, I still have a football to work with and we can play with the "wrong team's ball." When you relay out the only football, we stand their looking like morons screaming "Ball! Ball!" at the top of our lungs.
Basically agree, although I don't like having ball boys on the field - EVER. The wing official will take the new ball from the ball boy. If the wing is down field the U or R will go over and get it.

I totally agree with not throwing a ball off after a COP until you have the replacement. It's not our job to go chasing the ball boy around the sideline looking for a new ball. IF the ball isn't ready we're playing with the one we have.

ajmc Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:46am
Excuse me, RefUmpWelsch, I was not responding to the behavior mentioned in the original example. The reaction to those restrictions and any arrogance or annoyance at the request seems fairly obvious. I don't know about "perogative", but choosing to insist on an unusual, one sided, restriction regarding the exchange of footballs seems unnecessary and a really poor way to elicit cooperation before the start of a game.

The point I was trying to make, is that neither team is entitled to, or should receive, ANY special treatment related to the pace of the RFP for ANY reason, much less when it's suggested when a change of pace is intended to give one team an advantage.

There are all sorts of "issues" to deal with relating to ballboys and/or exchanges of game balls. Unfortunately, the primary factors are usually where you are and what resources are made available to you. Some venues provide excellent assistance, some offer horrible help, and you have to figure out the best way to deal with what you've got. Thankfully, we have great leeway to do what we think will be best.

Rich Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 554885)
Basically agree, although I don't like having ball boys on the field - EVER. The wing official will take the new ball from the ball boy. If the wing is down field the U or R will go over and get it.

I totally agree with not throwing a ball off after a COP until you have the replacement. It's not our job to go chasing the ball boy around the sideline looking for a new ball. IF the ball isn't ready we're playing with the one we have.
Amazing the differences -- I'm the WH on my crew and I want the ball boys (on a new series) to run all the way out and HAND the ball to the umpire. On a long incompletion either the wing or BJ will get a new ball from the ball boy while someone else chases the other ball.

Welpe Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 554934)
Amazing the differences -- I'm the WH on my crew and I want the ball boys (on a new series) to run all the way out and HAND the ball to the umpire.
Same way it is done here.

Quote:
On a long incompletion either the wing or BJ will get a new ball from the ball boy while someone else chases the other ball.
For some reason, teams as whole do not do that here. Most teams have one ball they will use for the game and that is it.

OverAndBack Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 554934)
Amazing the differences -- I'm the WH on my crew and I want the ball boys (on a new series) to run all the way out and HAND the ball to the umpire.
See, and I'm totally cool with there being certain matters of individual style and preference with regards to white hats (and with crews). If your referee wants it done a certain way, do it that way. When you're the crew chief, you can do it your way.

Ref Ump Welsch Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:49pm
[QUOTE=ajmc;554925]The point I was trying to make, is that neither team is entitled to, or should receive, ANY special treatment related to the pace of the RFP for ANY reason, much less when it's suggested when a change of pace is intended to give one team an advantage.[QUOTE]

I think you better re-read the original post. The officials gave special treatment to the home team, after the visiting coach mentioned his offense was a hurry-up offense. The coach was trying to equalize it, and I'll admit he went a little bit too far with his reasoning, but he was put at a disadvantage by the officiating crew AFTER he originally stated he had a hurry-up offense. Not to judge the crew, the posting made it sound like the crew heard "hurry-up" and and became offended by it. That's the arrogance I was speaking of.

Rich Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:54pm
[QUOTE=Ref Ump Welsch;555000][QUOTE=ajmc;554925]The point I was trying to make, is that neither team is entitled to, or should receive, ANY special treatment related to the pace of the RFP for ANY reason, much less when it's suggested when a change of pace is intended to give one team an advantage.
Quote:

I think you better re-read the original post. The officials gave special treatment to the home team, after the visiting coach mentioned his offense was a hurry-up offense. The coach was trying to equalize it, and I'll admit he went a little bit too far with his reasoning, but he was put at a disadvantage by the officiating crew AFTER he originally stated he had a hurry-up offense. Not to judge the crew, the posting made it sound like the crew heard "hurry-up" and and became offended by it. That's the arrogance I was speaking of.
Hurry-up doesn't mean the officials should be in any more hurry to start a new series than in any other game. What the team does after the normal RFP is completely up to them.

waltjp Wed Dec 03, 2008 02:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 554934)
Amazing the differences -- I'm the WH on my crew and I want the ball boys (on a new series) to run all the way out and HAND the ball to the umpire. On a long incompletion either the wing or BJ will get a new ball from the ball boy while someone else chases the other ball.
My reasoning is simple - players are big and strong and armored. Ball boys are not. I also feel we're quicker when we relay the ball in from the sideline instead of having the ball boy run on and off the field.

This method works well for us.

bisonlj Wed Dec 03, 2008 02:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 554934)
Amazing the differences -- I'm the WH on my crew and I want the ball boys (on a new series) to run all the way out and HAND the ball to the umpire. On a long incompletion either the wing or BJ will get a new ball from the ball boy while someone else chases the other ball.
When I was a line judge, I told the ball boys they could come all the way out to wherever I was to deliver or retrieve a ball. If I had to pinch in for a spot and needed a new ball, I didn't want him to have to heave the ball 20 yards to get it to me. I would occasionally get an over-zealous ball boy who would like to run it out to the umpire and I was usually fine with that if he was efficient.

refbuz Wed Dec 03, 2008 02:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 554934)
Amazing the differences -- I'm the WH on my crew and I want the ball boys (on a new series) to run all the way out and HAND the ball to the umpire. On a long incompletion either the wing or BJ will get a new ball from the ball boy while someone else chases the other ball.
I don't get the handing part, is it because your wing guys can't throw, or your Umpire can't catch?

What does your LJ do during a CoP?

ajmc Wed Dec 03, 2008 03:02pm
Excuse me RefumpWelsch, I understood the example accurately, which is why I mentioned I was suggesting something associated with a previous, related, issue about exchanging footballs.

Is it possible I could have made it clearer that I would not recommend the restrictions imposed by the referee in the sample question? Was there some part of, "unnecessary and a really poor way to elicit cooperation before the start of a game" that led you to a conclusion I was being supportive?

The secret is simply; don't don't be complicit, even unintentionally, in doing something that might allow either team to gain any unearned advantage.

Rich Wed Dec 03, 2008 03:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by refbuz (Post 555058)
I don't get the handing part, is it because your wing guys can't throw, or your Umpire can't catch?

What does your LJ do during a CoP?
Irrelevant, really. Half the time the ball comes in from the chain side and the L has something to do. So both ball boys do the same thing.

There's no reason for the wings to come in. They start on the sidelines. Ball boy runs ball to umpire. Umpire spots ball while ball boy leaves field. Wings are in position. Ready for play. Not having to handle the ball frees them to count players, line up, etc.

Throwing the ball around unnecessarily is also something we try to avoid.

OverAndBack Wed Dec 03, 2008 03:47pm
Well, that's sage advice, it seems to me.

Rich Wed Dec 03, 2008 04:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverAndBack (Post 555092)
Well, that's sage advice, it seems to me.
If I had seven, I would probably handle it a bit differently (using a deep wing and leaving the ball boy off the field). But I don't and probably never will at the high school level.

My crew spends a lot of time talking about things like this when we meet before, during, and after the season. One of the advantages, I think, of having a set crew.

OverAndBack Wed Dec 03, 2008 06:44pm
It surely is.

When you're like some of us and constantly working with different people, you may run into the same WH from time to time and know how they like things done, and that's fine, but you end up, by default, just going along and it's not as smooth as it is when you're on a crew.

Because I can tell you, we don't spend a lot of time talking about anything on a subvarsity game with a mix-and-match crew. And I think it's to the detriment of everybody.


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