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-   -   Legal, Illegal, Deceptive, or any combo of the 3? (https://forum.officiating.com/football/50088-legal-illegal-deceptive-any-combo-3-a.html)

WGGriffon Sun Nov 30, 2008 07:34pm

Legal, Illegal, Deceptive, or any combo of the 3?
 
At the conclusion of a play during the dead ball period, a receiver steps off the sideline. (A) huddles up with 10 players. Referee marks the ball ready for play. (A) sends in a player giving them 11, but a player leaves the huddle and heads toward the sideline giving the appearance to (B) that he is replaced. The (A) player stops short of the sideline and remains montionless, with his back to the field. He is perpendicular to the line of scrimmage. At the snap, he releases downfield and the QB lobs a deep pass down the sideline which is caught for a TD.

Any flags?

waltjp Sun Nov 30, 2008 07:41pm

NFHS Rule (edited to add)

Illegal participation foul. 15 yards from the previous spot.

9-6-4d

ART. 4 . . . It is illegal participation:

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer or other attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or
immediately before the snap or free kick.

PENALTY: Illegal participation (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4a [live-ball, basic spot]) – (Arts. 4b-f [live-ball, previous spot]) – (S28) – 15 yards.

With_Two_Flakes Sun Nov 30, 2008 08:21pm

College.
9-2-2-b
No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents.
PENALTY - Live-ball foul. 15 yards from the previous spot [S27]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified [S47].

There is even an A.R. that exactly mirrors the scenario in WGG's post.

A.R. 9-2-2-III
A1 leaves the field during a down. Team A huddles with 10 players. Substitute A12 enters and A2 simulates leaving the field, but sets near the sideline for a "hide-out" pass. RULING: Penalty -- 15 yards from the previous spot. This is a simulated replacement of a player to confuse opponents.

Welpe Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:34am

NFHS: What Walt said.

Robert Goodman Mon Dec 01, 2008 01:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WGGriffon (Post 554104)
At the conclusion of a play during the dead ball period, a receiver steps off the sideline. (A) huddles up with 10 players. Referee marks the ball ready for play. (A) sends in a player giving them 11, but a player leaves the huddle and heads toward the sideline giving the appearance to (B) that he is replaced. The (A) player stops short of the sideline and remains montionless, with his back to the field. He is perpendicular to the line of scrimmage. At the snap, he releases downfield and the QB lobs a deep pass down the sideline which is caught for a TD.

Any flags?

Simulated substitution procedure. Classic "hideout" or "sleeper" play that rule was directed against.

But how about this one: same as above, but before the ball is snapped, B1 asks to use one of their remaining time outs. If it was clear because of verbal signals that the reason for the time out was because the hideout play was diagnosed, what do you do?

Looks like because both Fed & NCAA make the foul one deemed to occur as the ball is put in play, you have to grant the time out and no foul occurs.

Robert

Scooby Mon Dec 01, 2008 09:27am

If the official catches this before the snap it can also be an Illegal Subsitution (NFHS). Right?

Dakota Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:18am

From the Clemson-South Carolina game this past Saturday:

Junior receiver Jacoby Ford joined two teammates jogging to the sideline, then bent down to pretend to tie his shoes. Receivers coach Jeff Scott played the part, barking at Ford nearby as if he was chewing him out.

The signal was sent in — all was a go to run a trick play Clemson aptly named “Cock-a-doodle-doo” when installing it this past week.

... the result was a 50-yard touchdown catch by Ford that put Clemson ahead 17-0 with 8:33 remaining in the second quarter.

“I hadn’t seen that one since I ran it at Gaffney High School with the junior varsity,” USC defensive coordinator Ellis Johnson said. “And we scored on it, too.”

Ford went undetected along the left sideline and ran downfield uncovered at the snap.

OverAndBack Mon Dec 01, 2008 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 554225)
Looks like because both Fed & NCAA make the foul one deemed to occur as the ball is put in play, you have to grant the time out and no foul occurs.

And yet, we had the big debate here about when exactly you "know" it's a foul, so you call it as soon as you see it, despite the fact they could call time out and make things right before the snap.

Just sayin'.

Bob M. Wed Dec 03, 2008 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 554261)
If the official catches this before the snap it can also be an Illegal Subsitution (NFHS). Right?

REPLY: No, because there are only 11 on the field. The dead ball substitution infraction is for a replaced player not leaving the field immediately (meaning there are more than 11 on the field and no one attempting to get off). This guy's a player--not a replaced player.


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