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TXMike Sun Nov 30, 2008 08:32am

Game Protest Brewing in California
 
From the Sacramento Bee newspaper website:

Vacaville Christian wins, then loses, Division VII section football title
By Bill Patterson
[email protected]

It was a tough way to lose a game.

Vacaville Christian High School football players and supporters thought the team had won its second consecutive Sac-Joaquin Section Division VII championship Friday night in the most dramatic fashion against visiting Bradshaw Christian.

With six seconds on the clock and Vacaville Christian trailing by two points, the Falcons' Drake Wiest fielded a squibbed kickoff, broke a tackle, then outraced the Pride defense to the end zone as time expired.

But after meeting for nearly three minutes, the officials ruled the touchdown was void. They told Vacaville Christian coach Chris Smith there had been an inadvertent whistle as Wiest was picking up the ball.

The Falcons got the ball at the 50, ran a pass play that was stopped at the Pride's 20-yard line and, just like that, it was the Bradshaw Christian faithful celebrating the school's 27-25 victory and the school's first section football title.

Saturday afternoon, Smith barely could contain his anger at the call.

"We won the game," Smith said. "The officials have robbed our program of a championship.

"We've reviewed our tape, parents' tapes and TV replays. We've cranked up the volume on our film, and you can't hear a whistle. It's the most egregious call I've ever seen."

Smith said crew chief Rick Stannard couldn't tell him which member of his five-man officiating crew made the mistake.

"No one would take ownership of blowing the whistle," Smith said.

He said he has written to Jim Jorgensen, who oversees area football officials, and sent e-mails to section officials asking that they "make the correction and award us the title."

He said he also plans to consult the school's attorney Monday about any "options" his school might pursue.

Section assistant commissioner John Williams said it would be unprecedented for the section to reverse a game official's ruling.

"Officials make calls all the time that people don't agree with," Williams said. "I don't want it to seem that we are downplaying this, but we are not in a position to change the outcome of a game."

Jorgensen called the situation "unfortunate" but said on-field decisions cannot be reversed.

The controversial call capped what had been a remarkable final three minutes between the two Sacramento Metro Athletic League rivals.

Vacaville Christian appeared to lock the game up on a 90-yard drive, with Trevor Moheit scoring on a 22-yard run with 2:40 to play. Chandler Thorn's PAT kick gave the Falcons a 25-24 lead.

OverAndBack Sun Nov 30, 2008 04:44pm

Ouch.

It's bad to have an IW. Worse in that instance. Even worse to not own up to it.

SC Ump Sun Nov 30, 2008 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverAndBack (Post 554072)
Even worse to not own up to it.

If no one owns up to it, how is it an IW? Did one of the officials just think they heard one? If so, how could they be sure it was an official and not something on the sideline? I'm sure there's more to the story. Interesting.

mbyron Sun Nov 30, 2008 08:20pm

I suspect that someone owned up to it when the crew huddled, and the white hat decided not to reveal who it was in order to protect that person.

JugglingReferee Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:05pm

The official that won't own up to an IW that cost a team a championship must quit officiating immediately.

That's rght - you read that correctly. Whoever you are. Quit. And now. Unbelievable.

JasonTX Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:22pm

Perhaps there is another side to this story that isn't being quoted properly in the article.

kfo9494 Mon Dec 01, 2008 08:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonTX (Post 554172)
Perhaps there is another side to this story that isn't being quoted properly in the article.

We hope!

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 01, 2008 09:12am

If the call on the field isn't reversed, the only right thing to do is to award co-champions.

On another note, a poster on another site was correct: if there was in fact an IW as R1 picked up the kicked ball, why did the crew let the play continue, and so much as a team running it back to break a tackle and 50 yards for a touchdown? It is unbelievable that these are championship quality officials.

If it is true that the whistle can't be heard on video sources, I find it difficult to believe that an IW actually happened. There are three different video sources, and not one of them picked up the IW?

Three minutes to conference? Pathetic....

GPC2 Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:02am

Juggling - you okay? Is the cold getting to you up there? You seem extremely perturbed.

I would assume *somebody* blew a whistle, since they huddled about it. If not - that's pretty bad. Although we get assailed a lot, it is our duty as officials to be upstanding and honest - and sometimes we must admit fault no matter how hard it may be. Hopefully the official that blew the whistle will fess up - and if it is determined that no official actually blew a whistle, then that crew should be harshly punished - maybe a one year suspension.

Forksref Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:12am

How many times have I said, "Drop the whistle from your mouth at the snap/free kick?"

YIKES!

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 01, 2008 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPC2 (Post 554273)
Juggling - you okay? Is the cold getting to you up there? You seem extremely perturbed.

I would assume *somebody* blew a whistle, since they huddled about it. If not - that's pretty bad. Although we get assailed a lot, it is our duty as officials to be upstanding and honest - and sometimes we must admit fault no matter how hard it may be. Hopefully the official that blew the whistle will fess up - and if it is determined that no official actually blew a whistle, then that crew should be harshly punished - maybe a one year suspension.

It's situations like in the OP that gives people good reason to hate referees. And I don't blame them one bit.

Even if it out comes out that the author is a piss-poor journalist, most people know that corrections/retractions aren't seen by all people that saw the original story. And thus officials get a bad persona.

Three cameras with no evidence of an IW?
The CC couldn't tell the coach which official had the IW.
- I think couldn't can only mean: (a) it is against policy to inform coaches who had the IW, or (b) he didn't know who had the IW.
- If either (a) or (b) is true, you bet that the coach is pissed, and rightfully so.
- Wouldn't tell the coach who had the IW is different. Still stupid, imho, though.

Also note that Jorgensen never said that the correct call was made... only that the situation is "unfortunate".

OverAndBack Mon Dec 01, 2008 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Ump (Post 554088)
If no one owns up to it, how is it an IW?

If one of the five whistles sounded through breath coming from the lungs and mouth of the referee, the umpire, the line judge, the linesman or the back judge, it's an IW. Whether someone owns up to it or not. It's not like you can pretend it didn't happen and boom! it just didn't happen, like a season of Dallas.

Quote:

Did one of the officials just think they heard one? If so, how could they be sure it was an official and not something on the sideline? I'm sure there's more to the story. Interesting.
It's very possible, indeed probable, that we don't have the entire story.

However, we do have this, though it's not from the crew chief directly:

Quote:

Smith said crew chief Rick Stannard couldn't tell him which member of his five-man officiating crew made the mistake.

"No one would take ownership of blowing the whistle," Smith said.
Which is not the same as the crew chief saying to his guys, "Did you blow your whistle? Did you blow your whistle? Did you blow your whistle? Did you blow your whistle? Did *I* blow my whistle?" and then saying to the coach, "There was no inadvertent whistle." Because if there's no IW, the touchdown stands.

We do also have this, which leads me to believe there was an IW:

Quote:

They told Vacaville Christian coach Chris Smith there had been an inadvertent whistle as Wiest was picking up the ball.
So there was an IW. It's not a question of whether there was or not, if we believe that Chris Smith is relaying what he was told accurately (someone in a supervisory position should say something about this whole mess, it seems to me).

If you're any kind of an official at all, you know that IWs happen. Chances are they've happened to all of us (or, more properly, we've all done it - they're not things that happen to us, they're things we do).

Also if you're any kind of official at all, your heart goes out to someone who blows an IW in a critical situation like this, or who kicks a crucial call because we've all been there (except for one or two supermen on this board who work 125 games a season and never make a bad call).

So we can all emphathize. Holy cow, man, I feel for you and I know that nobody on Earth feels worse about it than you do.

But IF you did it, you gotta own up to it. We can put an arm around your shoulder and say "You'll be a better official for this" and "Your brothers are here with you, because right now you sure as hell don't have any other friends here," but if you're not going to own up to it, that's just wrong. And covering it up is just wrong, if that's what's going on. A conspiracy doesn't help anybody but the official who blew the whistle. And while that hurts like hell, you can get past it.

I don't know how you could get past not admitting you did it or how you could get past covering it up. IF that's what happened here, and that's strictly deducing what might have happened. As mentioned, we don't appear to know the whole story.

EDIT: Yes, it is entirely possible that the reporter got it wrong. We don't know. My point is - keep the damn whistle out of your mouth, especially on kicks. And IF you do blow an IW, own up to it.

bisonlj Mon Dec 01, 2008 04:11pm

Was the ball still loose when there was an IW? If yes, there should have been a re-kick. No options for R. If they ruled the IW took place after R gained possession, they have the choice to take the ball where it was declared dead or re-kick. If they ran the next play from the 50, are they saying the squib kick was picked up at the 50? Where was it kicked from?

ajmc Mon Dec 01, 2008 05:54pm

A couple of years ago, I would have been completely shocked if anyone on an official's forum immediately took the word of a newspaper report, over what sounds like a common sense answer to an extremely loaded question. Sadly, I'm not surprised today, so many are so quick to presume the very worst about the officials in this instance.

Granted, this sounds like a really, really bad IW incident, but what Referee, worth his salt, would throw a crew member under the bus by identifying him to an irate, justifyably or not, coach on the spot? The fact that the Referee chose not to point out who was the particular official who actually sounded the IW shouldn't suggest, at least to other officials, that the crew was unsure that a whistle was inadvertently blown.

For those of you have yet to experience an irate coach not listening to what he's been told and then screwing up the retelling of what he should have heard to match what he concluded before anyone told him anything, you shouldn't have to wait very long for the next opportunity.

OverAndBack Mon Dec 01, 2008 06:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 554443)
what Referee, worth his salt, would throw a crew member under the bus by identifying him to an irate, justifyably or not, coach on the spot?

I think that's what we're all aghast about.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen that way. Doesn't mean it did.

Quote:

The fact that the Referee chose not to point out who was the particular official who actually sounded the IW shouldn't suggest, at least to other officials, that the crew was unsure that a whistle was inadvertently blown.
If there was no IW, they'd have had to let the touchdown stand, though, wouldn't they?

Agreed, we don't know the whole circumstance, and likely never will.

I'd like to believe the best about my brothers in stripes. But I don't know what to think about this. And if I can't trust the Sacramento Bee, I don't know what I can trust. :)

wwcfoa43 Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:39am

I would like to gather a room full of coaches and ask them two questions:

1. Did you know coaches that football is played by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one your human players such as them dropping a ball?

The heads would nod and wonder why I aksed such a stupid question.

2. Did you know coaches that football is officiating by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one of the human officials such as them blowing their whistle accidentally?

Then shock would set in as the coaches expressed disbelief, anger and starting to imagine the lawsuit that they would have to bring (of course in Canada they would not imagine the lawsuit because here if you spill coffee on yourself you don't get any money...)

It is interesting that coaches can understand the answer to the first question but not the second even though the answers are identical and for the same reason!

ref18 Fri Dec 05, 2008 02:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 554259)
If the call on the field isn't reversed, the only right thing to do is to award co-champions.


I believe that's the wrong thing to do. You can't reverse the call, because players stop playing when they hear a whistle. The defense stops defending and that could very well have led to the touchdown. And you can't award "co-champions" as only one team won.

The rules are quite clear to do in that situation, and it seems like they did it. You can't reverse the call on the field. You have to address it the same way you'd address an inadvertent whistle on the opening kickoff of the first game of the year. This shouldn't be protestable as it's not a misapplication of rules, it's a judgment call made by the officials, yes it may have been bad judgment, but it's still a judgment call. And kudos for the Ref for not revealing who blew it. The official probably feels like **** because of it, and you don't need to pour salt on the wound by selling out a member of your crew to the coaches. I'm pretty sure those on the crew know who blew it. And I'm hoping he had to cover the hefty bar bill that was part of the post game. ;)

Let he who has never blown an inadvertent whistle cast the first stone.

JugglingReferee Fri Dec 05, 2008 08:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ref18 (Post 555581)
I believe that's the wrong thing to do. You can't reverse the call, because players stop playing when they hear a whistle. The defense stops defending and that could very well have led to the touchdown. And you can't award "co-champions" as only one team won.

The rules are quite clear to do in that situation, and it seems like they did it. You can't reverse the call on the field. You have to address it the same way you'd address an inadvertent whistle on the opening kickoff of the first game of the year. This shouldn't be protestable as it's not a misapplication of rules, it's a judgment call made by the officials, yes it may have been bad judgment, but it's still a judgment call. And kudos for the Ref for not revealing who blew it. The official probably feels like **** because of it, and you don't need to pour salt on the wound by selling out a member of your crew to the coaches. I'm pretty sure those on the crew know who blew it. And I'm hoping he had to cover the hefty bar bill that was part of the post game. ;)

Let he who has never blown an inadvertent whistle cast the first stone.

So early in the season you're going to not tell a coach who had the IW? Tell me again why he doesn't have a right to know, especially when there is often a system in place where coaches rate officials.

Many US high school systems work like this. There's a league called the OVFL where coaches grade officials. Are you saying that a crew should hide who blew an IW so that the coach doesn't have a chance to issue a downgrade to that individual?

ajmc Fri Dec 05, 2008 09:58am

Absolutely, for several reasons. First, IW is a mistake, albeit a big mistake, that affects one play out of 100+ that comprise a game. It is highly doubtful that will be the only mistake your crew will make that game.

Second, we function as a crew and every mistake we collectively make is attributed to our crew. A crew MUST function as a unit to be successful.

Third, from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game. Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Fifth, throwing a fellow crew member "under the bus" will do little to minimize the effect that one IW has on crew ratings (all crew ratings) and will deminish whatever level of respect the offended sideline may have had for the officiating crew (the entire crew).

As with any any discussion with the sideline explaining any unusual, or unfortunate, situation the tone should be businesslike, matter of fact and reflect the proper ruling. Identifying the specific official serves no constructive purpose and raises the possibilities of having to deal with subsequent problems that would be otherwise totally avoidable.

Coaches ratings are what they are, worrying about them during a game or adjusting your performance to influence them is a fool's pursuit and can create a lot more damage than any benefit.

mbyron Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43 (Post 555574)
I would like to gather a room full of coaches and ask them two questions:

1. Did you know coaches that football is played by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one your human players such as them dropping a ball?

The heads would nod and wonder why I aksed such a stupid question.

2. Did you know coaches that football is officiating by fallible humans and that it is possible that you could lose the biggest game of your career due to an error by one of the human officials such as them blowing their whistle accidentally?

Then shock would set in as the coaches expressed disbelief, anger and starting to imagine the lawsuit that they would have to bring (of course in Canada they would not imagine the lawsuit because here if you spill coffee on yourself you don't get any money...)

It is interesting that coaches can understand the answer to the first question but not the second even though the answers are identical and for the same reason!

I don't buy this so much: too many disanalogies, at least for HS football.

1. Only the officials are adults.
2. Only the officials have had years of training.
3. Only the officials get paid (well, security too).
4. Only the officials are officiating.

By that last one I mean that the players are actually playing the game, and if they make mistakes that's part of the game. When officials screw up, that's a disruption of the game.

wwcfoa43 Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 555621)
I don't buy this so much: too many disanalogies, at least for HS football.

1. Only the officials are adults.
2. Only the officials have had years of training.
3. Only the officials get paid (well, security too).
4. Only the officials are officiating.

By that last one I mean that the players are actually playing the game, and if they make mistakes that's part of the game. When officials screw up, that's a disruption of the game.

Oh my mistake (insert sarcasm):

1. Adults don't make mistakes. (!)
2. All officials have years of training at officiating. (What about the officials who are new!)
3. Getting paid means you don't make mistakes. (I wonder what's wrong with the people I work with at my day job then...)
4. Not even sure what #4 implies.

bisonlj Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 555621)
I don't buy this so much: too many disanalogies, at least for HS football.

1. Only the officials are adults.
2. Only the officials have had years of training.
3. Only the officials get paid (well, security too).
4. Only the officials are officiating.

By that last one I mean that the players are actually playing the game, and if they make mistakes that's part of the game. When officials screw up, that's a disruption of the game.

I understand what wwcfoa43 is saying but I agree there is a difference between players and coaches. First, we don't have an opponent that can cause us to make errors. Second, our mistakes are mostly mental while players mistakes can be both mental and physical. Even if our mistakes could be deemed physical (looking in the wrong place, being in the wrong position, blowing an IW), they are caused my mental errors.

wwcfoa43 Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 555629)
I understand what wwcfoa43 is saying but I agree there is a difference between players and coaches. First, we don't have an opponent that can cause us to make errors. Second, our mistakes are mostly mental while players mistakes can be both mental and physical. Even if our mistakes could be deemed physical (looking in the wrong place, being in the wrong position, blowing an IW), they are caused my mental errors.

Players can make mistakes without opponents being involved. A wide open receiver can drop a pass after all.

There are many factors that go into who wins the game. Sports would be different if the assumption was made that all players will execute perfectly, that the weather will cooperate, that no one will be injured, ... , and that yes officials will work a perfect game.

The team tries to ensure that their players play to their potential but there are no guarantees.
The players will try not to get injured but their are no guarantees.
The home team will try to make the weather or other environmental conditions not a factor (by say shoveling the snow off the field) but their are no guarantees and we have had to play on snow covered fields and it is a factor.
And yes the officials will try and work a perfect game but again there are no guarantees.

To expect that all the possible factors are "part of the game" EXCEPT that the officials errors are not part of the game but should be expected to be perfect is naive in my opinion.

While participants should not necessarily be happy about any of the impacts on the outcome, they should understand that they can happen and not be incessed.

ajmc Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:14am

I saw John Madden tell a story about the difference between coaches and officials that has stayed with me. At a pre-season game following Madden's Super Bowl Raiders victory, he showed Jim Tunney, that Super Bowl Referee, his ring.

Tunney questioned why Madden got a ring the size of an ashtray, and he got a commerative wrist watch. Madden replied, "because you didn't care who won". That difference answers a lot of questions, some good, some bad depending on perspective.

ref18 Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 555594)
So early in the season you're going to not tell a coach who had the IW? Tell me again why he doesn't have a right to know, especially when there is often a system in place where coaches rate officials.

Many US high school systems work like this. There's a league called the OVFL where coaches grade officials. Are you saying that a crew should hide who blew an IW so that the coach doesn't have a chance to issue a downgrade to that individual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 555616)
Absolutely, for several reasons. First, IW is a mistake, albeit a big mistake, that affects one play out of 100+ that comprise a game. It is highly doubtful that will be the only mistake your crew will make that game.

Second, we function as a crew and every mistake we collectively make is attributed to our crew. A crew MUST function as a unit to be successful.

Third, from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game. Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Fifth, throwing a fellow crew member "under the bus" will do little to minimize the effect that one IW has on crew ratings (all crew ratings) and will deminish whatever level of respect the offended sideline may have had for the officiating crew (the entire crew).

As with any any discussion with the sideline explaining any unusual, or unfortunate, situation the tone should be businesslike, matter of fact and reflect the proper ruling. Identifying the specific official serves no constructive purpose and raises the possibilities of having to deal with subsequent problems that would be otherwise totally avoidable.

Coaches ratings are what they are, worrying about them during a game or adjusting your performance to influence them is a fool's pursuit and can create a lot more damage than any benefit.


ajmc has the right idea. We go out there as a crew, and we need to make sure we have eachother's backs. We have to stick up for ourselves, and in most IW situations it's pretty evident who blew that whistle. In this one, it isn't. We succeed as a crew, we fail as a crew, we make mistakes as a crew. When someone makes an amazingly good call, you don't go tell the coach which official made it so he can be praised. Why would you do the same when someone screws up. He has to make it up to the crew somehow, but, you as the WH need to be responsible when the coach is involved. And selling out one of our own, one of the only 6 guys out there who will have your back when you **** up isn't the way to do it.

TXMike Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:33am

Assuming the state governing body were to do an investigation into the incident or request a report from the crew, would those of you who are advocating the "black and white wall" still condone not divulging? I hope not

I can understand the reluctance in the heat of the moment to single some one out but the bottom line is, the crew knows who had the whistle (or else there was NO whistle). And if that guy does not ball up and tell the coach himself then that guy is the guy I will not be working with again. If you do not have the moral courage to admit your mistakes then you really ought to think about your future in this endeavor.

ajmc Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:08pm

Unless you're in a State that has way too many people involved in HS sports, nobody is thinking about any kind of "investigation" might be necessary to determine who made what mistake. If however, some governing body were to ask that question, obviously, they deserve an answer.

A coach is entitled to know that a mistake was made and what effect that mistake has on the the circumstances that will follow. Being told there was a mistake is all the information that is necessary, and there is no need, whatsoever, for anyone to, "ball up and tell the coach himself ", becaue it just doesn't matter.

TXMike Fri Dec 05, 2008 01:02pm

I will tell you who it IS important to (or should be anyway)... to the guy who made the call. It SHOULD be important enough to him that he not leave the rest of his guys hanging out there and taking heat for HIS mistake.

And I guarantee you that if a championship game in Texas ended like this, there would be inquiries from the state governing association. There is an "Incident Reporting System" and something like this would be something ythey expect to be reported.

OverAndBack Fri Dec 05, 2008 01:06pm

I agree that a white hat or a crew 'throwing a crew member under the bus' would be a negative, but look at it the other way.

What the hell kind of person are you if you don't stand up and take responsibility for your own actions and mistakes?

I hate that I blew an IW in back to back years in the same game between the same two teams (at least the first year it favored one team, the next year it favored the other*). But I admitted it and that was part of me getting past it. The other part of me getting past it was knowing that (a) almost everybody who's ever done this has kicked a big call or blown an IW or just majorly goofed up and that (b ) it doesn't define you as a person. If it makes you re-examine your mechanics or your ability to do this, that's part of the self-assessments we ALL should make as human beings.

So I have less of a problem with a crew or crew chief trying to protect a crew member in the short term (I don't know what kind of effect that's going to have long term) than I do with the person who blew the IW not saying "It was me."

I guess you could say "Don Denkinger is still reviled 23 years later," and maybe you'd have a point that you'd have to live with that attached to your name for a while.

But is it better or worse to only have it on your conscience?


*I'm kidding. It doesn't even out.

GPC2 Fri Dec 05, 2008 04:08pm

Of course we don't know all of the particulars, but it appears (based on what was written in the article) that the official that did blow the IW (if there really was one) didn't even own up to it to his fellow crew members - that is what is inexcusable to me. Furthermore, for an official to compromise the integrity of officials everywhere simply to "save face" is also inexcusable. Either way - seems like a pretty horrible situation to me.

But, for my vote, I would say that the state should accept the results of the game as the officials decided it - there really would be no way for them to prove whether a whistle was blown or not.

OverAndBack Fri Dec 05, 2008 05:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ref18 (Post 555635)
ajmc has the right idea. We go out there as a crew, and we need to make sure we have eachother's backs. We have to stick up for ourselves, and in most IW situations it's pretty evident who blew that whistle. In this one, it isn't. We succeed as a crew, we fail as a crew, we make mistakes as a crew.

Admirable point of view, and we all know that the only friends we all have out there are the other guys in the stripes, but it seems to me that a conspiracy of silence does more harm than good.

Quote:

When someone makes an amazingly good call, you don't go tell the coach which official made it so he can be praised.
Isn't it usually pretty obvious who makes calls? If it was obvious in this case who blew the IW, there wouldn't be a problem.

Quote:

Why would you do the same when someone screws up. He has to make it up to the crew somehow,
What? "make it up to the crew?" What do you mean, do extra good on the next call? We try to do the best we can on every call, every play. You can't say, "Well, I was going to just go at 75% on the next play, guys, but because I kicked that one, I'm going to go 97, maybe 98, just for you, on the next one."

If a circumstance warrants that you "pick up" someone on the crew (by reminding them that it's 10 rather than 5 on that penalty enforcement or whatever), you do that regardless of whether you kicked one or they did. We don't do make up calls for teams, we don't have to do them for ourselves. We do the best we can on each and every play.

Quote:

but, you as the WH need to be responsible when the coach is involved. And selling out one of our own, one of the only 6 guys out there who will have your back when you **** up isn't the way to do it.
You see it as selling someone out. I see it as standing up and admitting it is the right thing to do. The honorable thing to do.

ref18 Fri Dec 05, 2008 06:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverAndBack (Post 555791)
Admirable point of view, and we all know that the only friends we all have out there are the other guys in the stripes, but it seems to me that a conspiracy of silence does more harm than good.

We're not being silent. It doesn't matter who blew it, the fact is it was blown, and it was admitted to that it was blown. Now, I wouldn't have done what this WH did, and say no one owned up to it. I would've said something like, "We made a mistake, but we are following the rules set out for when a situation like this happens, and I take responsibility for the actions of my crew."

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Isn't it usually pretty obvious who makes calls? If it was obvious in this case who blew the IW, there wouldn't be a problem.
It's quite obvious, to us, when the last thing the coach is thinking about is the officials, it's going to be a little less obvious.


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What? "make it up to the crew?" What do you mean, do extra good on the next call? We try to do the best we can on every call, every play. You can't say, "Well, I was going to just go at 75% on the next play, guys, but because I kicked that one, I'm going to go 97, maybe 98, just for you, on the next one."
We have a discipline system up here, depending on how badly you **** up, there is a corresponding amount of beer that you have to cover at the bar following the game. And lets just say that this mistake would mean the other crew members could get pretty sloppy without opening up their wallets.

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If a circumstance warrants that you "pick up" someone on the crew (by reminding them that it's 10 rather than 5 on that penalty enforcement or whatever), you do that regardless of whether you kicked one or they did. We don't do make up calls for teams, we don't have to do them for ourselves. We do the best we can on each and every play.
werd!

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You see it as selling someone out. I see it as standing up and admitting it is the right thing to do. The honorable thing to do.
I agree...but who do you need to admit it to?

Admit it to your supervisor, definitely. Admit it to your crew, definitely. Admit it to the coach after the game, sure. But during the game, I think the best course of action is to deal with it as a crew.

ajmc Fri Dec 05, 2008 07:00pm

You are entitled to your perception of teamwork and how to support those who work with you. If you believe throwing a co-worker "under the bus", which is exactly what pointing out a fellow official to an irate coach, on the field, during a game in the heat of the moment basically amounts to, that is certainly your perogative.

If your rationalization concludes that is honorable behavior, that's entirely up to you, and on you. It seems odd, or at least troubling, that with so little actual detail, so many are so eager to assume the very worst of all possibilities up to and including some that are imaginable.

Common sense would suggest that if after the play, none of the game officials acknowledged blowing a whistle, the rational decision would then be that no whistle had been blown, and the play would stand, as completed.

Apparently you have been fortunate in yet to work a game with an IW. If you had, you would understand what "picking up the official" who blew one is all about and how important it is, to everyone, to help that official shake off the lasting effects of his mistake as quickly as possible.

Understandably, given the circumstances and timing of this incident, coaches, players, and fans were likely "concerned" with the chain of events, and it seems, in that environment, singling out one individual as the sole target for all that "concern" would accomplish absolutely NOTHING positive.

You presume the official making that mistake did not own up to it to his partners, and I have no idea how, or more importantly why, you would make that presumption since, as stated above, in the absence of confirmation that a whistle was blown, presuming there was a whistle seems like an unusual conclusion.

We all are experienced in dealing with how utterly foolish people make them themselves look, when they insist on staking out positions without sufficient knowledge of the facts, rules or circumstances to know what they are talking about. Somehow, come playoff time, a lot of us completely forget all that experience and rush to conclusions based on tidbits from news reports, comments from emotional coaches, administrators, players and fans.

Do the guys who work with you and count on your support know you feel this way?

ajmc Fri Dec 05, 2008 07:05pm

You are entitled to your perception of teamwork and how to support those who work with you. If you believe throwing a co-worker "under the bus", which is exactly what pointing out a fellow official to an irate coach, on the field, during a game in the heat of the moment basically amounts to, that is certainly your perogative.

If your rationalization concludes that is honorable behavior, that's entirely up to you, and on you. It seems odd, or at least troubling, that with so little actual detail, so many are so eager to assume the very worst of all possibilities up to and including some that are imaginable.

Common sense would suggest that if after the play, none of the game officials acknowledged blowing a whistle, the rational decision would then be that no whistle had been blown, and the play would stand, as completed.

Apparently you have been fortunate in yet to work a game with an IW. If you had, you would understand what "picking up the official" who blew one is all about and how important it is, to everyone, to help that official shake off the lasting effects of his mistake as quickly as possible.

Understandably, given the circumstances and timing of this incident, coaches, players, and fans were likely "concerned" with the chain of events, and it seems, in that environment, singling out one individual as the sole target for all that "concern" would accomplish absolutely NOTHING positive.

You presume the official making that mistake did not own up to it to his partners, and I have no idea how, or more importantly why, you would make that presumption since, as stated above, in the absence of confirmation that a whistle was blown, presuming there was a whistle seems like an unusual conclusion.

We all are experienced in dealing with how utterly foolish people make them themselves look, when they insist on staking out positions without sufficient knowledge of the facts, rules or circumstances to know what they are talking about. Somehow, come playoff time, a lot of us completely forget all that experience and rush to conclusions based on tidbits from news reports, comments from emotional coaches, administrators, players and fans.

Do the guys who work with you and count on your support know you feel this way?

Forksref Fri Dec 05, 2008 07:45pm

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Originally Posted by ref18 (Post 555581)
Let he who has never blown an inadvertent whistle cast the first stone.

But don't admit it.

Suudy Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:10am

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Originally Posted by TXMike (Post 554009)
With six seconds on the clock and Vacaville Christian trailing by two points, the Falcons' Drake Wiest fielded a squibbed kickoff, broke a tackle, then outraced the Pride defense to the end zone as time expired.

Wait a sec. The kicking team cannot advance a kick (I presume Vacaville are the Falcons). The ball is dead when a kick is recovered by the kicking team. So if the whistle was blown when the ball was recovered by the kicking team, that was the right call. How can it be an IW?

Seems to me the screwup is calling it an IW, when the whistle was appropriate.

Am I missing something here?

bisonlj Mon Dec 15, 2008 08:37am

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Originally Posted by Suudy (Post 558192)
Wait a sec. The kicking team cannot advance a kick (I presume Vacaville are the Falcons). The ball is dead when a kick is recovered by the kicking team. So if the whistle was blown when the ball was recovered by the kicking team, that was the right call. How can it be an IW?

Seems to me the screwup is calling it an IW, when the whistle was appropriate.

Am I missing something here?

I think the receiving team fielded the squib kick and ran it back for a TD. You are correct in everything else you are saying though.

TXMike Mon Dec 15, 2008 09:00am

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Originally Posted by Suudy (Post 558192)
Wait a sec. The kicking team cannot advance a kick (I presume Vacaville are the Falcons). The ball is dead when a kick is recovered by the kicking team. So if the whistle was blown when the ball was recovered by the kicking team, that was the right call. How can it be an IW?

Seems to me the screwup is calling it an IW, when the whistle was appropriate.

Am I missing something here?

Vacaville is the Falcons They fielded the squick KO their opponents did and started to run it the distance befor ethe whistle blew.

BigTex Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:24am

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Originally Posted by GPC2 (Post 555754)
Of course we don't know all of the particulars, but it appears (based on what was written in the article) that the official that did blow the IW (if there really was one) didn't even own up to it to his fellow crew members - that is what is inexcusable to me. Furthermore, for an official to compromise the integrity of officials everywhere simply to "save face" is also inexcusable. Either way - seems like a pretty horrible situation to me.

But, for my vote, I would say that the state should accept the results of the game as the officials decided it - there really would be no way for them to prove whether a whistle was blown or not.

Baseball guy here.

If the crew gets together, and nobody admits to having an IW, how can the R tell the coach that there was one? If nobody admits to having one, maybe there was not one. Is someone on the crew lying? If there was an IW, whoever had it should have the sack to say it. I believe the coach has the right to know who blew the IW. In baseball, the Manager (HC in NCAA and FED), has the right (given to him by the rulebook) to question a call. If he does it in the correct way, he will be given an explanation. I assume it is the same way in football.
Example, Batter hits a ball straight down and starts to run, the runner gets to first, then is sent back because it was ruled that the ball actually was fouled off of his foot. The MAnager comes out and asks the PU, "Who called it?" I cannot imagine a situation when the PU would not tell the Manager who called it foul.

DISCLAIMER: The info I quoted was from a poster referring to a media statement, please take all information from the media statement with the required amount of skepticism.

Suudy Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:37pm

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Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 558254)
I think the receiving team fielded the squib kick and ran it back for a TD. You are correct in everything else you are saying though.

Ah! My bad.

I've re-read the article 3 times, and I don't know how I figured that Vacaville was kicking off.

Rich Mon Dec 15, 2008 01:39pm

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Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 555616)
Absolutely, for several reasons. First, IW is a mistake, albeit a big mistake, that affects one play out of 100+ that comprise a game. It is highly doubtful that will be the only mistake your crew will make that game.

Second, we function as a crew and every mistake we collectively make is attributed to our crew. A crew MUST function as a unit to be successful.

Third, from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game. Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Fifth, throwing a fellow crew member "under the bus" will do little to minimize the effect that one IW has on crew ratings (all crew ratings) and will deminish whatever level of respect the offended sideline may have had for the officiating crew (the entire crew).

As with any any discussion with the sideline explaining any unusual, or unfortunate, situation the tone should be businesslike, matter of fact and reflect the proper ruling. Identifying the specific official serves no constructive purpose and raises the possibilities of having to deal with subsequent problems that would be otherwise totally avoidable.

Coaches ratings are what they are, worrying about them during a game or adjusting your performance to influence them is a fool's pursuit and can create a lot more damage than any benefit.

To add:

Where I'm from, we are graded as a crew. As the WH, *I* am the one that will go over to the coach, tell him what happened, explain the options, if any, and likely will tell him he has X seconds to vent before we put it behind us and continue the game. (Cause if he's still yelling about the IW after I go back to the middle of the field, he's likely going to get flagged.).

I will not throw a member under the bus. I will simply say "there was in IW." Period. Whether I blew it (I have one in my career, to date) or someone else did isn't really important to the game or to the crew. *We* own it.

OverAndBack Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:19am

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Originally Posted by ref18 (Post 555804)
I agree...but who do you need to admit it to?

Your crew, for starters. If the crew chief decides it's in everybody's best interests that it be a "crew IW" as far as everybody is concerned, fine.

But IF (and it's an "if" with a capital "media report,") this is true:

Smith said crew chief Rick Stannard couldn't tell him which member of his five-man officiating crew made the mistake.

"No one would take ownership of blowing the whistle," Smith said.


that ain't right.

"Wouldn't tell him," fine. "Couldn't tell him" supposes that he wanted to.

You may think that a crew is a crew is a crew and [B Joel] we said we'd all go down together[/B Joel] and I'm fine with that. While I might say (to myself) after a game, "Boy, I'm glad it wasn't me who kicked that call," the truth is we all share in the crew's successes and failures. We can't function effectively otherwise.

My point was that IF the official who blew the IW wouldn't own up to it to his crewmates (again, IF, as one might surmise from the story*), that's not honorable. I wouldn't want that guy on my crew.

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Admit it to your supervisor, definitely. Admit it to your crew, definitely. Admit it to the coach after the game, sure. But during the game, I think the best course of action is to deal with it as a crew.
Fine, with the caveats mentioned above.



*Just as, as an official I hate it when fanboys and announcers paint us all with the same brush, as a journalist by training and trade, I'm not in favor of officials doing the same with all writers. Neither job has cornered the market on incompetence or on sainthood.

OverAndBack Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:29am

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from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game.
Agreed. We disagree on how to start that process.

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Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.
Wouldn't "admitting you made a mistake" be the first step towards getting past a mistake? Don't most people feel better after they admit stuff? How does admitting it prolong the period of self review/self doubt?

We should all self-review and be reviewed by people we trust all the time. If we kick a big call, we need to ask ourselves why. Were we out of position? Did we lose focus? Are we 20 pounds heavy? Or (and this is the hard question) are we cut out for this?

I'm not saying you blow an IW, you immediately look to bail on the avocation or turn in your stripes. I'm saying that self-assessment is good. We all know guys who stay past their effectiveness. Was it a one-time thing or a pattern? You have to ask yourself these questions, regularly. It's healthy.

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Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.
Or he'll grow thick skin in a hurry, one. And thick skin is a good thing to have in this avocation.

Some keep returning to making it easier on the guy who blew the IW.

We don't do this because it's easy.

We do it because it's hard.

Sympathize, hell, yeah. I feel for you. Want to talk about it? I'm here for you. Been there. Let me tell you my story. This is how it works. What can I do after the game to help you get past it? But right now, we gotta line up and call the rest of the game (there was only one more play left in the game in question, right? It was going to make for some uncomfortable moments, sure, but only a few and then you're out of there).

ajmc Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:45am

I'm sorry I gave you the wrong impression about getting past an IW. My concerns are not nearly as much about healing bruised egos or self esteem as much as they are about getting my crew back to working efficiently and effectively. Experience, and common sense, suggests singling out the individual who may have made a mistake is not helpful in reaching that objective.

Spare me your advice about thick skin, most of the people I work with have enough scar tissue to render than concern mute.

As RichMSN, so elequently phrased it, "Whether I blew it or someone else did isn't really important to the game or to the crew. *We* own it.", and that is sufficient detail to provide any coach.

As for "self-review", a wonderful concept to pursue off the field after the game, but again, is not something healthy for any official to get immersed in at the moment. Providing unnecessary ammunition to a frustrated coach to assist him in throwing verbal grenades at one of your crew members seems like a wrong way to try and get to the point where everybody can, "line up and call the rest of the game."

Ed Hickland Tue Dec 16, 2008 01:18pm

What is the relevance of identifying the official who blew the IW to the coaches? It will not take the IW away?


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