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-   -   Forward vs Backward Pass (https://forum.officiating.com/football/49749-forward-vs-backward-pass.html)

TXMike Fri Nov 07, 2008 07:25am

Forward vs Backward Pass
 
Good save by someone on the crew (R or L ?) on a play where it looks like H ruled a backward pass and muff but was actually an incomplete forward pass. From a Texas HS game last night.

YouTube - PASS

bigjohn Fri Nov 07, 2008 07:47am

The coach would have loved it had the D picked it up and run it back for a TD.. Think the official still calls it?
I would hope so!

HLin NC Fri Nov 07, 2008 09:47am

Good call
 
for incomplete

ajmc Fri Nov 07, 2008 09:52am

As is usually the case, an official makes the call based on what he sees, not after weighing all the possibilities of what he thinks might happen after the fact. Those are considerations reserved for coaching.

Sonofanump Fri Nov 07, 2008 01:22pm

Rule if uncertain:

If incomplete it was forward, if complete it was backwards, if beyond the line of scrimmage, good luck.

Mike L Fri Nov 07, 2008 01:29pm

Our rule of thumb is it's always forward unless you KNOW it was backward.

wwcfoa43 Fri Nov 07, 2008 03:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 549099)
Our rule of thumb is it's always forward unless you KNOW it was backward.


I prefer Sonofanup's description is that if unsure and complete then backward and if unsure and incomplete then forward. This uses the least harm and benefit of doubt principles:

1. If unsure and complete you want to give the offense the benefit of doubt if they decide to then throw a forward pass.

2. If unsure and incomplete you want to give the offense the benefit of the doubt and not have a fumble as a result.

Can seems like a bit of a contradiction but given that we cannot always be sure about our rulings we need to do the least harm when we are not sure.

Mike L Fri Nov 07, 2008 04:04pm

I guess that's ok if you want to give all the benefit of the doubt to one team over the other.

Rich Fri Nov 07, 2008 04:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 549099)
Our rule of thumb is it's always forward unless you KNOW it was backward.

Well, that's great except what happens if one person doesn't know and blows it dead when another crew member is CERTAIN it's backwards.

You can always fix it like this crew did, but you can't undo what becomes an inadvertent whistle.

wwcfoa43 Fri Nov 07, 2008 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike L (Post 549134)
I guess that's ok if you want to give all the benefit of the doubt to one team over the other.

You have to remember that we are talking about cases in which we are not sure what the correct ruling is. In such cases, we try and use the principle of least harm or you could call it least difference.

If a player is near the sideline and we lose track of his feet for a instant we will not call him out of bounds unless we saw him touch out of bounds. In this case the least harm would be to give the benefit of the doubt to the runner.

If a player is near the goal line on a drive we will not award a TD unless we see the player break the plane. If we miss the breaking of the plane then we give the benefit of the doubt to the defense that the player did not break the plane.

If there is a potential block in the back but we missed seeing how the player got to that point then we will pass on throwing the flag and give the player the benefit of the doubt that there actions are legal.

There will be many examples of where we need to err one way or the other if we are not sure what happened. Some will favour the offense and some will favour the defense but I believe that we try to do the least harm with what we did not see or to put it another way, the least difference such as no foul, player still in bounds and no TD.

wwcfoa43 Fri Nov 07, 2008 04:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 549136)
Well, that's great except what happens if one person doesn't know and blows it dead when another crew member is CERTAIN it's backwards.

You can always fix it like this crew did, but you can't undo what becomes an inadvertent whistle.

That is where eye contact and perhaps a signal with the other official is crucial. You should only blow these dead when NEITHER if you knows that it was backward.

ajmc Fri Nov 07, 2008 06:28pm

It's definitiely something to cover and agree on during the pre-game discussion, but if one official believes a pass to be forward and blows it dead, it shouldn't matter how CERTAIN another official might belive that the pass was backwards. The simple solution is to immediately support your crew mates signal and repeat his incomplete pass signal.

Inadvertent whistle should never come into the equation.

Sonofanump Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:52pm

It's just easier to officiate when they catch the ball and don't throw it again.

JugglingReferee Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonofanump (Post 549230)
It's just easier to officiate when they catch the ball and don't throw it again.

It was easier when the Fed permitted the 2nd forward pass. :D

Rich Sat Nov 08, 2008 07:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 549164)
It's definitiely something to cover and agree on during the pre-game discussion, but if one official believes a pass to be forward and blows it dead, it shouldn't matter how CERTAIN another official might belive that the pass was backwards. The simple solution is to immediately support your crew mates signal and repeat his incomplete pass signal.

Inadvertent whistle should never come into the equation.

My point is that one shouldn't take a guess. If nobody has knowledge, then that's another story. But I've seen one official punch back and another whistle the pass incomplete and the guy with the incomplete call hasn't always been right.


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