Two players in Motion
 

at the snap.

Is it Illegal motion or is it illegal Shift.

I know they both result in the same thing but it is an arguable point.

;)

The real question should be, "Is it worth arguing about"? NF 7.2.6 explains what is necessary to legally shift, and 7.2.7 explains what is required for a player to be legally in motion. Illegal motion violations relate to the actions of a single player and relate to the timing and direction of the action taken by that player.

Illegal shift violations, normally relate to more than one player moving at the wrong time or in the wrong manner, although they do include the actions of a single player who may have either started his movement improperly or failed to complete it as intended.

Both are live ball, 5 yard penalties and the difference between the two is based on the conprehension of the rule differences of the covering official.

Is that why signal 20 is one arm moving for illegal motion and two arms for illegal shift?

Doesnt Rule 7-2-2 say:

ART. 7 . . . Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if
such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line. Except for the player “under
the snapper,” as outlined in Article 3, the player in motion shall be at least 5 yards
behind his line of scrimmage at the snap if he started from any position not clearly
behind the line and did not establish himself as a back by stopping for at least
one full second while no part of his body is breaking the vertical plane through
the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on the line of scrimmage.

illegal motion (Art. 7) – (S20)

Two players moving is illegal shift.

One player moving in motion illegally (going forward) is illegal motion.

Not correct. For example: two players move during a shift. One sets, the other does not. Ball is snapped. This is an illegal shift, and it doesn't matter whether the one player is moving "forward" at the snap.

ART. 6 . . . After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute
stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands,
feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.
illegal shift (Art. 6) – (S20);

I don't see anything in this rule about motion.

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.

Is (d) illegal motion or illegal shift if a teammate is in motion??

Rule 2 SECTION 39
says nothing about motion here either!

SHIFT
A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after
taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

7-2-7 Only one A player may be in motion at the snap
PENALTY: illegal motion (S20)

note: I deleted the non applicable parts to save space.

7.2.6 Situation B: Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped.
Ruling: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-39)

If it makes you feel better, I would announce it as an illegal shift.

Yes, that is an illegal shift. In my example, for the sake of brevity I didn't address all possible examples. Shame on me... :rolleyes:

Thanks you, I just want to know where everyone stands on this call and why! I see rule coverage for illegal motion and case play coverage for illegal shift so it is a bit confusing. Bring back Illegal procedure! :)

Brevity is fine, but not at the expense of misleading people into thinking, "two in motion = illegal shift, one in motion = illegal motion." That's brief all right, but it's also wrong.

Read my original post, I said nothing about one player in motion= illegal motion, I said one player in motion illegally. Those are two different things.

Illegal procedure never was an illegal shift or illegal motion. It had nothing to do with those two.

A real simple solution, bigjohn, when there's a flag thrown on the field, just ask the wing man on your side line to explain what the call is, and accept what he tells you. Beating a horse to death just for the sake of beating him is cruel and unusual and may even be considered flagrant.

Oh, all you're saying is that illegal motion is illegal motion. Hard to argue with that. Brief, too. :rolleyes:

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

If the above is correct, I have called this incorrectly about a zillion times.

I think that is erroneous. If you read the case book from this year, section 7.2.6, it appears that this is an illegal shift. Read play B and C.


7.2.6 SITUATION B:

These are different than the first situation in the play quoted in the article. That is clearly illegal motion. Everything else quoted IS an illegal shift. An illegal shift has everything to do with not meeting the legal requirements of a shift, having mostly to do with not coming set for a second before another player moves or the ball is snapped.

Rich is right: the quoted case plays all involve at least one player coming set while others are in motion. When multiple players are in motion and one comes set, that makes the motion a shift. If they do not all come set prior to the snap, the shift is illegal.

In the play bigjohn posted, all we have is 2 players moving at the snap. That's illegal motion, since neither came set prior to the snap.

According to the rule, illegal motion is only two things: two men in motion at the snap and/or a player moving forward at the snap. A shift occurs when a player STOPS moving and if a player shifts (stops moving) then EVERYONE else in motion must also shift (stop moving) for at least one second before the snap or before another player goes legally in motion again.

Is this illegal motion?

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...egalmotion.wmv

Ok, so I think I see the difference between all the plays mentioned in this thread. So if two players go in motion at the exact same time and don't stop, illegal motion per 7-2-7.

If two players go in motion and one of them resets, then it's an illegal shift per 7-2-6.

As for the video (I can't see it they block the site here at school), if I remember correctly, that's the play where the QB goes under center when the motion man goes in motion. Based on where my understanding of things thus far (which is a little shaky to say the least :)) I believe this is an illegal shift. This was a POE this year, correct?

Right. The back goes in motion then the QB steps under center and starts his cadence. This is an illegal shift since you had two in motion at the same time but the QB shifted (stopped moving) when he placed his hands under the center. Had the ball been snapped before the QB had been set for one second you would have had an IM. Since the ball was snapped after the QB was set for a second and the back didn't stop moving, you have and IS.

Exactly right.

My copy of the video must be corrupted. I do not see the QB stepping.

REPLY: But grant...in both 7.2.6 case plays, the words are clear that one of the players STOPPED (i.e. shifted). The cited play (which I recognize) has two scenarios: (b) which matches the two 7.2.6 case plays in that one of the players STOPPED; and also (a) where both players continue in motion through the snap. (a) does not match the case plays you quoted...but (b) does.

I stand by my assertion that in the play that bigjohn cited, scenario (a) results in illegal motion, and (b) results in an illegal shift

Bob, I agree. I failed to notice the difference between one stopping and neither stopping. I think I have it figured out now. Think being the opperative word! :)